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Meng Whippet and overall colour?


SeaVenom

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Typical WW1 tank colour question here.   I'm building Mengs Whippet and I need to know if the overall colour is correct.   It says to paint it olive brown but the colour does look more green than brown in the instructions (like maybe Humbrols olive drab 155).  On various searches I've done people have said Whippets were painted like MKIV's and were more of the usual tan/khaki brown colour they were painted in but others say they were more of a green.  And I've read that the example in the Royal Museum of the Army in Brussels is thought to have been painted a dark green.   I'm doing the example CAESAR II (A259).

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As someone who is currently building the Meng Whippet I have also puzzled over the colour for these tanks and have come to the conclusion that nobody can definitively say for certain what the true colour was. I think that olive drab is a good place to start from but I personally think there should be a hint of green in the mix as well. I have come to the conclusion, allowing for my ageing eyesight that Revell Aqua colour Nato olive is a good compromise.

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2 hours ago, laurie82 said:

As someone who is currently building the Meng Whippet I have also puzzled over the colour for these tanks and have come to the conclusion that nobody can definitively say for certain what the true colour was. I think that olive drab is a good place to start from but I personally think there should be a hint of green in the mix as well. I have come to the conclusion, allowing for my ageing eyesight that Revell Aqua colour Nato olive is a good compromise.

 

 

Thanks for that and the paint recommendation (it wouldn't surprise me if it's found out one day if at least some MKIV's were painted more of a green colour).   I've got some Revell paints here somewhere so I'll have a look and see if I have some.   

Edited by SeaVenom
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What I know so far is that:
- WW1 tanks were factory "grey" at first. A rather light grey, sort of LEGO grey

- Early camo pattern was quickly discarded.

- Much in field painting was done locally AFAIK to match the local soil. Different kinds of brown emerged.

- The uniform khaki brown was referred to as goal. This colour comes very close to later Dark Earth and one can even use it directly given the array of colours.
This the colour we settled for on the Poelcappelle Tank:

107627268_2893405980768536_4991338553452
- It is rumoured that given the new mobile character at the time the Whippet came it, khaki brown no longer was suited. But WHAT green it was, is up to debate

Edited by Steben
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On 4/11/2021 at 4:43 PM, laurie82 said:

Glad to be of help,good luck with the model

 

 

Thanks.   I can't find that particular Revell paint but I thought I'd try a tin of Humbrol 159 Khaki Drab which seems ok.

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On 4/11/2021 at 5:03 PM, Steben said:

What I know so far is that:
- WW1 tanks were factory "grey" at first. A rather light grey, sort of LEGO grey

- Early camo pattern was quickly discarded.

- Much in field painting was done locally AFAIK to match the local soil. Different kinds of brown emerged.

- The uniform khaki brown was referred to as goal. This colour comes very close to later Dark Earth and one can even use it directly given the array of colours.
This the colour we settled for on the Poelcappelle Tank:

107627268_2893405980768536_4991338553452
- It is rumoured that given the new mobile character at the time the Whippet came it, khaki brown no longer was suited. But WHAT green it was, is up to debate

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info.   I take it you work at the Brussels museum?

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9 hours ago, SeaVenom said:

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info.   I take it you work at the Brussels museum?

No, I don't. Know some who worked there though. Frankly, so far the best restoration results are in private hands or semi private. Our heritage in Belgium is not in optimal state at the moment. Sadly so.

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As everyone has noted, this is a question with no precisely definitive answer as the records and evidence are all lost or in a form that doesn't help.  It comes up regularly, however, and people often find it hard to understand the lack of knowledge compared to current times.  Paint codification did not begin in any meaningful way until the 1930's with the early BS and RAL systems.

 

All WW1-era British colours are contained in the Handbook for Artificers, 1912 and 1915 editions.  However they are dry-mix pigment recipes in linseed oil and therefore tell you nothing about the resulting colour and do not help with modern paint matching.  They are also impossible to replicate without following the same method, including using White Lead Of Death.  However, the Handbook also permits the mixes to be varied according to local conditions: which helps us not at all.  Also, the paints were batch-mixed for immediate use at factories and workshops and the paint did not keep long once mixed up.  Once the drying agent (e.g. shellac) was added the process of plasticisation began, but could still take several days to complete.  So some variation is very much inevitable.

 

The original Mk1 tank contract did not specify a colour: this is a known fact.  Stories of them being grey are tenuous at best, almost certainly based on photos of trials tanks in Engineers Grey paint as was common with new locomotives, traction engines etc at the time as it came out well on B&W film for official PR photos.  Possibly also assumptions that Admiralty involvement meant grey paint.  Recent research at Bovington museum has uncovered the most-likely situation that the Mk1s were in fact painted in Fosters' commercial satin Brunswick Green as they had the pigments in stock and it seemed an appropriate colour.

 

All later tanks were specified to be Service Colour or Service Brown.  The pigmentation of this mix in the Handbook suggests a likely colour similar to the WW2 SCC2 Brown, with a touch more green.  The pigmentation of both of these colours is very similar as in both wars we had very limited access to Chromium green pigments but ready access to Ochre clay pigment.  Whippet models are however typically presented in Green, and this may be based on the Bovington example which is a very green colour similar to the WW2 Khaki Green 3.

 

There are only 2 known for certain original paint WW1 tanks left in the world, plus another possible.  The MkIV tank Lodestar in the Brussels museum is still in original paint: this is a known fact.  The MkVIII tank factory model at Bovington is also in original paint: known fact.  The Medium A Whippet in the Brussels Museum is probably still in original paint.  All of these are what we might describe as brown with a hint of green.  However, photos of all of them on line vary tremendously according to the lighting, camera angle and camera settings used.  I only have my own photos of the MkVIII model, but it is in dim lighting in a glass case and there has clearly been a reaction with the solder, flux or different metals in the model over the 103 years since it was painted.

spacer.png

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Interestingly enough you mention the link between SCC2 and WW1 "tank service brown".
What I found in all my - serious of course - mixing fun is that many many khaki style browns are acceptably mixable with two base RAL tones: RAL 7008 (khaki grey) and RAL 8027 (NATO Leather brown)
As shown beneath you have an array of mixes of both colours with at the right mostly 7008 and on the left pure 8027. (picture in sunlight is slightly too cold on screen and is a tad more warmer/reddish in reality).
Tank khaki brown being very close to Dark Earth / Humbrol 29, which would be my ultimate straight out of the bottle advice in small scale modelling.

36717200_1020495111432988_76585596380984

Edited by Steben
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The real MkVIII tank parked next to the MkVIII model at Bovington is painted in a colour I would call Dark Earth, and it is very different to the model's original paint.  As seen here.

spacer.png

 

On my MkIV I used the Ochre Earth 78 from the Ammo MiG WW1 colours set.

spacer.png

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2 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

The real MkVIII tank parked next to the MkVIII model at Bovington is painted in a colour I would call Dark Earth, and it is very different to the model's original paint.  As seen here.

spacer.png

 

On my MkIV I used the Ochre Earth 78 from the Ammo MiG WW1 colours set.

spacer.png

Very nice. And yes, if you add just a hunch of leather brown, which is quite reddish, to dark earth you get into a region of scc2. I must admit ww1 is not a colour card age. The differences between scc2 and in between is made with really tiny amounts. Afaik too little to trust any standardisation of one colour in a time where batches were hand mixed. There is an official directive to paint in a colour matching with the khaki uniforms. If you have seen a lot of those though...

 

Back on green Ild say anything in khaki green 3 to even pc10 land might work. Ive seen the Brussels whippet several times but the light conditions are bloody awful.

Edited by Steben
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19 hours ago, Steben said:

No, I don't. Know some who worked there though. Frankly, so far the best restoration results are in private hands or semi private. Our heritage in Belgium is not in optimal state at the moment. Sadly so.

 

 

Shame to hear that your heritage isn't in the best of states (mind you ours can be neglected too) but if I'm in Belgium again I'll be paying a visit to the museum.

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14 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

As everyone has noted, this is a question with no precisely definitive answer as the records and evidence are all lost or in a form that doesn't help.  It comes up regularly, however, and people often find it hard to understand the lack of knowledge compared to current times.  Paint codification did not begin in any meaningful way until the 1930's with the early BS and RAL systems.

 

All WW1-era British colours are contained in the Handbook for Artificers, 1912 and 1915 editions.  However they are dry-mix pigment recipes in linseed oil and therefore tell you nothing about the resulting colour and do not help with modern paint matching.  They are also impossible to replicate without following the same method, including using White Lead Of Death.  However, the Handbook also permits the mixes to be varied according to local conditions: which helps us not at all.  Also, the paints were batch-mixed for immediate use at factories and workshops and the paint did not keep long once mixed up.  Once the drying agent (e.g. shellac) was added the process of plasticisation began, but could still take several days to complete.  So some variation is very much inevitable.

 

The original Mk1 tank contract did not specify a colour: this is a known fact.  Stories of them being grey are tenuous at best, almost certainly based on photos of trials tanks in Engineers Grey paint as was common with new locomotives, traction engines etc at the time as it came out well on B&W film for official PR photos.  Possibly also assumptions that Admiralty involvement meant grey paint.  Recent research at Bovington museum has uncovered the most-likely situation that the Mk1s were in fact painted in Fosters' commercial satin Brunswick Green as they had the pigments in stock and it seemed an appropriate colour.

 

All later tanks were specified to be Service Colour or Service Brown.  The pigmentation of this mix in the Handbook suggests a likely colour similar to the WW2 SCC2 Brown, with a touch more green.  The pigmentation of both of these colours is very similar as in both wars we had very limited access to Chromium green pigments but ready access to Ochre clay pigment.  Whippet models are however typically presented in Green, and this may be based on the Bovington example which is a very green colour similar to the WW2 Khaki Green 3.

 

There are only 2 known for certain original paint WW1 tanks left in the world, plus another possible.  The MkIV tank Lodestar in the Brussels museum is still in original paint: this is a known fact.  The MkVIII tank factory model at Bovington is also in original paint: known fact.  The Medium A Whippet in the Brussels Museum is probably still in original paint.  All of these are what we might describe as brown with a hint of green.  However, photos of all of them on line vary tremendously according to the lighting, camera angle and camera settings used.  I only have my own photos of the MkVIII model, but it is in dim lighting in a glass case and there has clearly been a reaction with the solder, flux or different metals in the model over the 103 years since it was painted.

spacer.png

 

 

Cheers for that.   Some of what you said I knew but other things I didn't know.  Great info!

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6 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

The real MkVIII tank parked next to the MkVIII model at Bovington is painted in a colour I would call Dark Earth, and it is very different to the model's original paint.  As seen here.

spacer.png

 

On my MkIV I used the Ochre Earth 78 from the Ammo MiG WW1 colours set.

spacer.png

 

 

Beautiful mud splatter paint job.   I wish some kit manufacturer like Meng or Takom would do the MKVIII too.  

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In a period memoir the Service Brown colour of tanks was described as being like "pig slop".  I presume this meant what came out of the back end of the pig rather than what went in the front end!  In those days pigs were widely kept and the description would probably have been widely understood.  Sadly I'm not overly familiar with "pig slop" so I have no idea what colour that might have been beyond generic brown 💩. Horse poo I do know as I have to drive through it every day to get to work, but we digress in a worrying way............

 

Taking Mike Starmer's name in vain I believe he has said in a previous post on this subject that from the pigmentation he believes it to be similar to SCC2 but with a touch more green.  In his Warpaint book series Dick Taylor also likens Service Brown to SCC2.

 

 

Edited by Das Abteilung
Bad spelling!
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On 4/16/2021 at 8:18 AM, Das Abteilung said:

In a period memoir the Service Brown colour of tanks was described as being like "pig slop".  I presume this meant what came out of the back end of the pig rather than what went in the front end!  In those days pigs were widely kept and the description would probably have been widely understood.  Sadly I'm not overly familiar with "pog slop" so I have no idea what colour that might have been beyond generic brown 💩. Horse poo I do know as I have to drive through it every day to get to work, but we digress in a worrying way............

 

Taking Mike Starmer's name in vain I believe he has said in a previous post on this subject that from the pigmentation he believes it to be similar to SCC2 but with a touch more green.  In his Warpaint book series Dick Taylor also likens Service Brown to SCC2.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that (I think).   Certainly an angle on things I haven't heard of before.....though I might just paint all my tanks green in future so I don't have to think of said pigslop!.

 

 

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There is a consistent view that Whippets were green but I believe this is based on the few (6) survivors, especially the Bovington example which is definitely not original paint.  The Brussels example, Firefly, is almost certainly original.  I haven't seen it with my own eyes and online photos vary a lot.  But to my eyes on my monitors they say greenish brown rather than green, which fits with the general belief of the likely colour of Service Brown.

 

There is a general and largely mistaken belief that WW1 military equipment was green, when in fact very little of it in any army was truly green because of the difficulty in obtaining chromium pigments.  Greens had to be made from, for example, yellow Ochre clay pigments and Prussian Blue which gave brownish hues.  The colour of Ochre varies a lot around the world from yellow to orange to reddish-brown, almost Sienna.  US WW1 Olive Drab was just Ochre and white.  In WW2 it was Ochre and black.

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16 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

There is a consistent view that Whippets were green but I believe this is based on the few (6) survivors, especially the Bovington example which is definitely not original paint.  The Brussels example, Firefly, is almost certainly original.  I haven't seen it with my own eyes and online photos vary a lot.  But to my eyes on my monitors they say greenish brown rather than green, which fits with the general belief of the likely colour of Service Brown.

 

There is a general and largely mistaken belief that WW1 military equipment was green, when in fact very little of it in any army was truly green because of the difficulty in obtaining chromium pigments.  Greens had to be made from, for example, yellow Ochre clay pigments and Prussian Blue which gave brownish hues.  The colour of Ochre varies a lot around the world from yellow to orange to reddish-brown, almost Sienna.  US WW1 Olive Drab was just Ochre and white.  In WW2 it was Ochre and black.

 

The Brussels one definitely ain't a happy apple green. I have seen it several times but was not in the possibilty of decent lighting which If I may say sucks big time in that hall.
I'm inclined to say the PC10 tones come very close to late war "green" which - just as the khaki brown can be linked to SCC2 - can be linked to khaki green no 3. Anything in those regions are more than enough for scale models which get dust and mud.

Khaki green 3 and SCC2 were far more consistent than many want to think yet WW1 was not and purely mixed on local eyesight. Yes, dark earth is perhaps too much tan/khaki-ish compared to "some" surviving painted samples. But mind you, those are not fresh! I think some WW1 tanks might just have looked RAF dark earth and others pure SCC2. They are not that far away from each other. But they were not really dark brown nor light green.

US WW1 drab is AFAIK a mix of white (but remember: lead white, not modern white) and umber. Lead white is slightly yellowish and less opaque. Modern (titanium) white would take the mix too much to grey. If you experiment with paints this is really astonishing. Transparent mixes of umber lead to yellow, opaque ones to grey. This again leads to a rather field drab colour. In itself again very close to Dark Earth... just a tad "tan/greener" than dark earth.

You know this one? Based on painted sample of WW1 relics.
101564736_1585424031606757_4054576687952

Edited by Steben
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On 16/04/2021 at 09:18, Das Abteilung said:

In a period memoir the Service Brown colour of tanks was described as being like "pig slop".  I presume this meant what came out of the back end of the pig rather than what went in the front end!  In those days pigs were widely kept and the description would probably have been widely understood.  Sadly I'm not overly familiar with "pig slop" so I have no idea what colour that might have been beyond generic brown 💩. Horse poo I do know as I have to drive through it every day to get to work, but we digress in a worrying way............

 

Taking Mike Starmer's name in vain I believe he has said in a previous post on this subject that from the pigmentation he believes it to be similar to SCC2 but with a touch more green.  In his Warpaint book series Dick Taylor also likens Service Brown to SCC2.

 

 

Never heard of pig slop for SCC2, more like fresh dog cr"p :D Pig slop is referred to for early olive drab AFAIK.

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"Pig slop" referred to the WW1 Service Colour/Brown, not the WW2 SCC2.

 

6 hours ago, Steben said:

US WW1 drab is AFAIK a mix of white (but remember: lead white, not modern white) and umber. Lead white is slightly yellowish and less opaque. Modern (titanium) white would take the mix too much to grey. If you experiment with paints this is really astonishing

Which is largely why matching the pigmentation today is extremely difficult even knowing the recipe.  A point made in a previous post on the subject by Jamie at Colourcoats/Sovereign Hobbies.  As he said, no-one wants to be messing around with White Lead Of Death - even if you get hold of any.  I had a plan to try replicating the Service Brown mix using ground pastels to see what it looked like but the white is the problem.  The yellowness could be corrected but the opacity is difficult if not impossible.

 

I suspect that a mix of SCC2 and Khaki Green 3 might lead to an appropriate outcome for Service Brown but I do not know the proportions.  I suppose that might be in the eye of the beholder.

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On 22/04/2021 at 03:21, Das Abteilung said:

"Pig slop" referred to the WW1 Service Colour/Brown, not the WW2 SCC2.

 

Which is largely why matching the pigmentation today is extremely difficult even knowing the recipe.  A point made in a previous post on the subject by Jamie at Colourcoats/Sovereign Hobbies.  As he said, no-one wants to be messing around with White Lead Of Death - even if you get hold of any.  I had a plan to try replicating the Service Brown mix using ground pastels to see what it looked like but the white is the problem.  The yellowness could be corrected but the opacity is difficult if not impossible.

 

I suspect that a mix of SCC2 and Khaki Green 3 might lead to an appropriate outcome for Service Brown but I do not know the proportions.  I suppose that might be in the eye of the beholder.

 

Mixing SCC2 with Khaki Green 3 lead to a colour slightly under-chroma (being a bit too dark losing colour).
A tad SCC2 mixed in with Dark Earth is my approach.

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