Lancaster squadron codes yellow outlines?

[TonyOD]

Can anyone help me with a Lancaster based query? I'm planning to build a 9 Squadron Lanc that gave long and faithful service, including taking part in the Tirpitz raid in September 1994. the OOB (Revell) decals give red codes with a yellow outline (as is the case with a surviving section of fuselage at Newark Air Museum). I've seen a picture of the same aircraft dated early '44 where the codes are lacking the yellow outline, it's a b/w photo but they're presumably just red. My question is, were the yellow outlines painted on specifically for the Tirpitz raid (in which case the build should correctly have a bulged bomb door to accommodate a Tallboy bomb), or was this just a change in marking conventions that took place sometime before September 1944?

 

Any advice gratefully acknowledged, 

 

Cheers

Edited March 31, 2021 by TonyOD

[matthies]

Hi Tony, Yellow outlines were added to Lancaster codes letters within 5 Group in the autumn of 1944. Individual code letters were also added to the outside of the tailplanes at the same time. Hope this helps.

[TonyOD]

11 minutes ago, matthies said:

Hi Tony, Yellow outlines were added to Lancaster codes letters within 5 Group in the autumn of 1944. Individual code letters were also added to the outside of the tailplanes at the same time. Hope this helps.

It does, thanks. I wonder when white tail fins came in. That might be a Tirpitz thing...

[mick b]

31 minutes ago, TonyOD said:

It does, thanks. I wonder when white tail fins came in. That might be a Tirpitz thing...

 

Tony

 

I believe the white fins were a means of identifying the formation leader as they were on daylight raids by 45. 

 

As you say Lancs employed on Tirpitz raids had the bulged doors as found on the Matchbox and Hasegawa (Tallboy) kits and usually the mid upper turret removed .

 

Mike

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

White fins for the W4964, WS-J "Johnny Walker" were painted already in August 1944:

 

"... Flypast article. It is in September 2005 issue (No 290). In the article the white fins are mentioned. I quote:

"...my 30th trip to La Pallice [u-boat pens, August 16]. Target was covered with cloud. We were controllers and everything went OK. We led the formation, ... They painted our tailfins white for the occasion, so that the Germans knew who was in charge." ..."

 

The quote(s) from my own posting in thread:  9/617 Sqn Lancaster query- Tirpitz raids
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234940925-9617-sqn-lancaster-query-tirpitz-raids/

 

The yellow edge question is also there.

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

[TonyOD]

Thanks, @Kari Lumppio and @mick b... I'd read that the other Revell OOB scheme had yellow fins/wingtips for the same reason (and the crew weren't that cool with bring marked out as a high value target!)

 

I think if I go with standard bomb doors and dorsal turret intact I get away with a pre-Tirpitz representation.

 

This particular airframe is the subject of a book I have on order, hopefully it will shed more light.

 

[tonyot]

I`m not sure if you`ll find these threads of interest?

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by tonyot

[TonyOD]

Bingo. Thanks, @tonyot.

 

The codes on the tails are interesting. They don't feature in the Revell decals, I wonder if these were added at the same time as the yellow outlines on fuselage or a bit later (which would be convenient!).

Edited March 31, 2021 by TonyOD

[Troy Smith]

22 hours ago, TonyOD said:

My question is, were the yellow outlines painted on specifically for the Tirpitz raid (in which case the build should correctly have a bulged bomb door to accommodate a Tallboy bomb), or was this just a change in marking conventions that took place sometime before September 1944?

Not read all the links, (so may well be in those)  but simply, yellow outlined codes happened when Bomber Command started flying in daylight in support of D-Day,  and it was found codes could not be read at distance,  and the yellow outline made them readable.  Also the reason for the use of various coloured fins and wingtips,   ID markings for daylight use. 

HTH

[TonyOD]

@tonyot @Kari Lumppio @Troy Smith  The Thorburn book has arrived and it's absolute gold. I've just had a quick flick through and it appears to be exhaustively and meticulously researched. Couple of interesting nuggets:

 

- the Tirpitz raid (Op. Paravane) wasn't W4964's 100th mission, as suggested by the markings on the fuselage, but her 102nd.

- W4964 retained her dorsal turret throughout her career, it wasn't removed when she carried the Tallboy for Paravane.

 

I think I'm going to enjoy this one!

 

[tonyot]

6 hours ago, TonyOD said:

@tonyot @Kari Lumppio @Troy Smith  

- the Tirpitz raid (Op. Paravane) wasn't W4964's 100th mission, as suggested by the markings on the fuselage, but her 102nd.

- W4964 retained her dorsal turret throughout her career, it wasn't removed when she carried the Tallboy for Paravane.

 

Now that is interesting,...... especially as the turret was said to have been removed to allow an extra oil tank to be fitted. Is there a photo of it with the enlarged bomb doors and the mid upper turret fitted? 

[TonyOD]

Apologies @tonyot I may have misread it. I saw this:

 

 

before I saw this:

I think what’s it’s saying is that WS/J retained its turret when pensioned off after 107 missions, i.e. it was refitted after Paravane. There’s no specific mention that I’ve seen yet of WS/J having her turret taken out for Paravane, just this blanket statement that suggests that it would’ve been impossible for any Lanc to carry a Tallboy so far with the turret in place. I wonder if the bomb doors were switched back afterwards too?

[tonyot]

8 minutes ago, TonyOD said:

Apologies @tonyot I may have misread it. I saw this:

 

 

before I saw this:

I think what’s it’s saying is that WS/J retained its turret when pensioned off after 107 missions, i.e. it was refitted after Paravane. There’s no specific mention that I’ve seen yet of WS/J having her turret taken out for Paravane, just this blanket statement that suggests that it would’ve been impossible for any Lanc to carry a Tallboy so far with the turret in place. I wonder if the bomb doors were switched back afterwards too?

Agreed Tony,..... I was going to say that the turret was more than likely re fitted after the op.  Not sure about the bomb bay doors?

Edited April 5, 2021 by tonyot

[TonyOD]

@tonyot I’m going to duck the issue and build it at op. no 98 😉

[tonyot]

2 minutes ago, TonyOD said:

@tonyot I’m going to duck the issue and build it at op. no 98 😉

That is why I did mine from the Tirpitz raid LOL! 

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi!

 

Operation Paravane Lancasters have been long of my interest. Their flight route to Russia took them over Finland and it is possible my parents have heard them to fly over.

 

W4964 did participate to Operation Paravane in September 1944 and flew with crew of seven (with M.U.G) and Tallboy (larger doors needed).

 

W4964 did not fly the later Tirpitz operations Obviate (October 29) and Catechism (November 12) where "Aircraft were modified to carry overload petrol - no Mid Upper Gunner being carried." The quote from IX Sqn ORB 12 Nov 1944 (AIR 27/128/21) . In Obviate mission two of the 20 IX Sqn Lancaster flew with crew of seven, the rest with crew of six likely without M.U.G. (and turrets?).

 

So it seems W4964 mid upper turret was never removed. Does Thorburn book mention anything about the ventral .50" MG installation and removal dates?

 

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

 

 

[TonyOD]

27 minutes ago, Kari Lumppio said:

W4964 did not fly the later Tirpitz operations Obviate (October 29) and Catechism (November 12) where "Aircraft were modified to carry overload petrol - no Mid Upper Gunner being carried." The quote from IX Sqn ORB 12 Nov 1944 (AIR 27/128/21) . In Obviate mission two of the 20 IX Sqn Lancaster flew with crew of seven, the rest with crew of six likely without M.U.G. (and turrets?).

 

I haven't got that far in the book yet but the chronological list of ops in the appendix told me it wasn't on the second and third Tirpitz strikes, the additional info about the extra fuel is interesting. I'll see what I can turn up regarding the MG.

 

As I said I think "shortly before Paravane" is the way I'll go, i.e. at the time of the raids on the La Pallice U-boat pens (16 & 18 August 1944). You have already kindly confirmed that the white tailfins were in place then (the quote from wireless operator Bob Woolf is in the book actually as it happens), as were the yellow outlines on the codes, and this photo shows exactly how the nose art looked at that time... and I won't have to worry about bomb doors or dorsal turrets! 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by TonyOD

[Mancunian airman]

In the new 'FLYPast publication, 'Avro Lancaster - The landmark raids' 

W4964 is shown as having completed 4 ops short of the photo shown above. (approx. 82 Ops flown).

Points of interest are

The individual 'J' letter on the nose is just RED.

The bomb-aimers blister is SHALLOW but still with IFF in there.

The bomb doors DONT appear to be bulged in any way.

 

By the time of its 100thh trip it was tasked with attacking the Tirpitz. It only carried another 6 operational sorties.

It may not have been converted to carry the Tallboy but acted as a support aircraft carryin 'Johnny Walker' mines ?? 

[Kari Lumppio]

7 hours ago, Mancunian airman said:

...

W4964 

....

It may not have been converted to carry the Tallboy but acted as a support aircraft carryin 'Johnny Walker' mines ?? 

 

Hi!

 

I was interested of the same question and searched the Operation Record Books.

 

IX Sqn ORB Form 540 AIR 27/128/17:
"Report on attach on the battleship "TIRPITZ" in Kaa Fjord on September 15th, 1944...
...So that in the morning of September 15th, 9 Squadron produced a total of 10 aircraft, 8 "Tallboy" and 2 "Johnny Walker"
...
The Operation
5. It was decided that the 617 and 9 Squadrons should attack the target at the same time, all the "Tallboy" aircraft as one force (force "A") and the "Johnny Walker" aircraft force "B". Force "A" was to be disposed in a height band of 14,000 - 18,000 feet and attack in four waves of 5 aircraft in line abreast, each wave occupying 1,000 feet in height with a distance between waves of a few hundred yards. The direction of attack was to be from South along the fore and aft axis of the target, the five aircraft in each wave having slightly converging headings owing to their distance apart in line abreast. Force "B" was to have a height band between 10,000 and 12,000 feet and consisted of four aircraft in line abreast in the first wave and three in the second wave immediately behind. These aircraft were to attach across the fjord from Sotuh East to North West."

 

IX Sqn ORB Form 541 AIR 27/128/18

15 September 1944
"..
Lancaster W4964... Primary attacked. 1055 hours. 14,900 ft. Stern of ship seen in sights. Five "Tallboys" seen to burst between ship and boom...
Lancaster NF925... About 20 J.W. bombs fell in the fjord...
Lancaster LM713... Some J.W. bombs seen to fall in water and some on East side of fjord."

 

The evidence for example altitude do point W4964 carrying Tallboy even if it is not directly recorded. The two IX Sqn J.W. Lancasters can be identified and W4964 was not one of them despite the aircraft nickname

 

Cheers,
Kari

Edited April 6, 2021 by Kari Lumppio

[TonyOD]

This is interesting @Mancunian airman.

 

Can I ask if the yellow outlined fuselage codes are visible in the same picture as the red-only nose "J"? 82 ops (actually 84 as the nose art tally was two out) would place the picture at the end of June '44, which would make it too early for the yellow outlines. If you typo'd and meant 92 (= 94, being four ops less than my photo) that would be end July, still I think a little early for the yellow outlines (I've seen "August" and "autumn" mentioned). Either date would also be too early for the Tallboy doors. Blisters I don't know about.

 

W4964 was definitely one of the 9 Squadron Lancs equipped with a Tallboy, in fact in Thorburn's book there's a copy of pilot Flight Lieutenant James Douglas Melrose's log from the mission that confirms it. 

 

Got to say Mr Thorburn's book is superb, and where there's conflicting information I think I'm going to take his account as "definitive". Certainly he must have spent many hours poring over 9 Squadron's ORB (so I don't have to! 😉)

 

(Edit: just had a look and both the kit decals and the Kits World aftermarket sheet give a plain red nose “J”, no outline).

Edited April 6, 2021 by TonyOD

[Mancunian airman]

TonyOD

You cannot see any fuselage lettering

The photo, ( IX Association) clearly shows 82 ops.

 

Photo used to illustrate details 

 

Note nose blister being the shallow type but with IFF in  it

[TonyOD]

@Mancunian airman nice pic!

 

This would be at 84 missions, which would put the photograph between 30th June and 4th July 1944 (after a raid on Beauvoir, Melrose in charge - that's him in the cockpit in my pic), assuming they kept up to date with the op tally. Thorburn posits that the two "missing" ops were from slightly earlier in her career, a recall on 19/6/44 from Watten (also Melrose) and a "DNCO" from a Berlin raid on either 2/1/44 or 24/3/44 . Apparently while they did not count towards a crew member's tour total, they did count as a mission for the airframe from the point of view of maintenance etc. 

 

Thanks for the heads up on the blister, the kit offers two types so I'll watch out for that one.

Edited April 6, 2021 by TonyOD

[EwenS]

10 hours ago, Mancunian airman said:

In the new 'FLYPast publication, 'Avro Lancaster - The landmark raids' 

W4964 is shown as having completed 4 ops short of the photo shown above. (approx. 82 Ops flown).

Points of interest are

The individual 'J' letter on the nose is just RED.

The bomb-aimers blister is SHALLOW but still with IFF in there.

The bomb doors DONT appear to be bulged in any way.

 

By the time of its 100thh trip it was tasked with attacking the Tirpitz. It only carried another 6 operational sorties.

It may not have been converted to carry the Tallboy but acted as a support aircraft carryin 'Johnny Walker' mines ?? 

 

Perhaps the reason that the bomb doors don’t appear to be bulged in that photo is that the first raid on the Tirpitz was the first time 9 squadron had been tasked with carrying Tallboys. The first Tallboys arrived at Bardney on 31st August. So their aircraft would need retrofitted with bulged bomb bays if they didn’t already have them.

 

Stephen Flower’s book “A Hell of a Bomb” also lists it as a Tallboy carrier on the Tirpitz raid.

 

9 sqn dispatched 12 Tallboy and 6 Johnnie Walker aircraft to the USSR. 1 aircraft, EE136/R, had its Tallboy slip in the bomb bay and returned after dropping it in the North Sea. 4 crashed in Russia (1 Tallboy & 3 JW carriers) and were w/o and another damaged its undercarriage and nose on landing. Another 2 needed engine changes and could not participate in the raid. Eventually they sent 8 Tallboy carriers and 2 with JW.

[TonyOD]

On 4/5/2021 at 8:24 PM, Kari Lumppio said:

Does Thorburn book mention anything about the ventral .50" MG installation and removal dates?

 

I turned something up on those .5” guns.

 

W4694/WS-J was one of three No. 9 Squadron Lancasters selected to try the gun following the number of losses due to the Schrägemusik rear/upward facing cannon German fighters were employing to great effect. The guns were fitted by the squadron’s armaments officer, Mick Maguire, and were first tried on W4694’s 63rd op which was to Brest on 8/5/44. Maguire went along for the ride to see how the gun got along, but was told afterward in no uncertain terms that technical officers were not supposed to go out on bombing ops!

 

Quote from Maguire:

 

“The idea [of the gun] was a bit late in arriving and there didn’t seem to be any special urgency or impetus behind it. Some squadrons never bothered with it at all, and ammunition was in short supply. We fitted it to three aircraft, including J-Johnny Walker. I flew with Phil Plowright to test it a few times. The notion suffered with the usual problem of a point five gun at that time, which was that the breech mechanism left it with one up the spout after it had been fired, and the hot barrel meant it would pop this round off at any moment. It was disconcerting at first but you got used to it and remembered to keep the thing pointing the right way.”

 

Two observations made during the Brest op were that the hole in the floor lit the interior of the plane up “like it had been whitewashed” when it was picked out by a searchlight (a searchlight was added to W4894’s nose art tally in honour of Maguire for this reason!), and “at the heights necessary for German ops, the hole in the floor transformed the plane from a fridge into a freezer”.

 

No specific date for the discontinuation of the gun at this point in the book (it just says vaguely “it was kept on for a while yet”), if this is mentioned later in the book I’ll let you know.

[TonyOD]

@Kari Lumppio I've finished the book now, some further information about those .5 inch guns:

 

The guns were still present on WS-J and the two other  9 Squadron Lancs (but had never made it as far as other aircraft) when they were sent to bomb a V2 installation at Watten on 19/6/44 (op. number 79, recalled after an hour in the air as it turned out), but by now seemed to be almost objects of derision. Bob Woolf:

 

"We were after flying bombs and were expecting a hot reception. Whether for this or another reason they gave us an extra gunner to operate the point five undergun. Only three kites had these guns, which we didn't think a great deal of and which usually went unmanned. They caused a lot of humorous remarks in the Mess. We'd heard about Mick Maguire*, the armaments officer, actually getting airborne to test out this idea in anger, and we'd heard all the jokes and witticisms that generated".

 

* In fact the searchlight nose art I mentioned above was added because Maguire is thought to have actually shot out a searchlight with his gun during the Brest raid when the gun was first trialled:

 

"I fired the point five at the searchlights... the searchlights went out. Now, I don't think I shot them out although everybody said I did. I think the aircraft behind us had hit them or the generator with his bombs". (Rolls Royce ran the tale of Maguire shooting out the searchlight in one of their Merlin ads of the time. It certainly makes a good story!)

 

Unfortunately Thorburn doesn't give a date for when the .5's were removed, though as they don't seem to have been very popular or much used I'd bet it wasn't long after.