British disruptive camouflage

[Keith Moynihan]

Hello again fellow moddlers. I have another query regarding British AFVs. Was there a disruptive pattern applied with/over SCC 15 to British late war tanks i.e. from D-Day to VE Day? I have read the maafv and mtp 20 but they are unclear about this timeframe.

[Bullbasket]

Short answer is yes. Black was applied as a disruptive pattern over SCC15 on several Fireflies and Cromwell Mk.lVs and Mk.Vls as well. There were probably others, but I haven't got any of my references to hand at the moment.

HTHs.

 

John.

[Graham Boak]

An even shorter addition: but only a few.  Photographs of them appear to be rare and often argued over.  there is a current thread running on Missing Lynx on this subject.

[Troy Smith]

31 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

An even shorter addition: but only a few.  Photographs of them appear to be rare and often argued over.  there is a current thread running on Missing Lynx on this subject.

 

This one I presume?

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/british-mickey-mouse-scheme-question-t327329.html

[Kingsman]

The short answer is that it was not authorised for tanks in NWE, which were supposed to be overall SCC15 or OD and with only a top surface white star-in-circle.  However, as noted above, photos show that it was done.  SCC14 over SCC15 or OD was authorised for AFV other than tanks, so you see it on the likes of Sextons for example.

 

I suggest that if this is your intent and to avoid controversy that you find a photo of such a vehicle and copy it.  Don't assume that it can be applied to any or every type of tank or unit.

[Keith Moynihan]

I'm not really pushed about accuracy but I do like variety on my models. This is why US AFVs and softskins done in good old US number 9 Olive Drab drive me to drink. At least the British and Germans knew what camouflage was.

[Black Knight]

Revell Anthracite, 09, is often suggested for the 'black' of the scheme

[Bullbasket]

16 hours ago, Keith Moynihan said:

I'm not really pushed about accuracy but I do like variety on my models. This is why US AFVs and softskins done in good old US number 9 Olive Drab drive me to drink. At least the British and Germans knew what camouflage was.

I think that you do our US cousins a disservice. There are many examples of disruptive cammo on US tanks/vehicles, especially in the Italian and Pacific theatres. There are a few here; https://www.google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=Photos+of+US+Sherman's+in+the+Pacific.&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj93ICxkN3vAhWJ5OAKHZAAAkgQ7Al6BAgDEF8&biw=1366&bih=625

 

John.

[Keith Moynihan]

But ,alas, not in NWE from D-Day to VE Day. IIRC I think the 4th Armoured Division were the only Division to camouflage their AFVs and anything else was down to individual preference of the actual tank crews.

[John Tapsell]

As others have said, disruptive patterns were not authorised for British tanks in NWE.

 

Like their American cousins, British armour in Italy was far more commonly camouflaged - and in a fair variety of colour combinations.

 

Allied tanks in NWE were mostly 'boring' monotone vehicles, irrespective of their nationality. A white turret roof (authorised shortly after D-Day but not universally applied) offers an obvious variation for British tanks.

[Steben]

Hi guys,

SCC14 is a match with RAL7021 by the way. Yes, the german grey.
 

[JackG]

17 minutes ago, Steben said:

Hi guys,

SCC14 is a match with RAL7021 by the way. Yes, the german grey.
 

Based on a specific brand of paint, or historically?

 

Not saying AK is bang on, but even they have separate paint bottles for these two colours, and their digital representations are not identical either (or is this just a sales gimmick?):

https://ak-interactive.com/product/s-c-c-14-blue-black/

https://ak-interactive.com/product/schwarzgrau-black-grey-ral-7021/

 

Mike Starmer and his research suggests Tamiya's Nato Black XF-69, and describes it "A very noticeably blue-black, a slightly ‘light’ black in effect."   Note no mention of green - (see Dunkelgrau description in video).

https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/?v=79cba1185463

 

As it is Tamiya's German Grey XF-63 is not considered a good match to RAL 7021 according to this study, and in fact the colour lies in between blue and green:

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Steben]

Hi jack, I based this on Mike´s swatches abd his revell reference. Most revell paints are straight ral colours. Cheers.

[JackG]

Thanks for the more specific reply.

 

  Referring back to Starmer's site, he has Revell #9 as a match, and this is labelled as Anthracite Grey.  Revell #79 is Panzergrau - would have thought this was their version of RAL 7021?

https://www.artitecshop.com/en/accessories/revell-paint/?limit=96

 

regards,

Jack

[Steben]

Hi jack, revell 9 is mentioned as 7021 though. My Ral 7021 colour card matches with Mike´s scc14 swatch. 79 is probably revell´s choice for "panzergrau", but it is not ral 7021.

Below you see flattened portion of RAL 7002 and RAL 7021 next to Light Mud and SCC14

Edited April 11, 2021 by Steben

[JackG]

I think it is fine to mention a specific paint brand and colour to match a particular war time paint, as Mike Starmer has.  

 

But making a blanket statement that RAL 7021 is the same as SCC14 is not helpful because not all hobby paints offer an acceptable Dunkelgrau.    I don't possess RAL colour chart samples - and one has to be careful here as modern charts are not all direct equivalents to wartime.  Hopefully when Historycolors is able to publish their research, that will all be explained.  

 

I do have Tomas Chory publication on Wehrmacht Colors and the appropriate Starmer book, and have to agree the two discussed paint colours are extremely close. 

[Steben]

36 minutes ago, JackG said:

I think it is fine to mention a specific paint brand and colour to match a particular war time paint, as Mike Starmer has.  

 

But making a blanket statement that RAL 7021 is the same as SCC14 is not helpful because not all hobby paints offer an acceptable Dunkelgrau.    I don't possess RAL colour chart samples - and one has to be careful here as modern charts are not all direct equivalents to wartime.  Hopefully when Historycolors is able to publish their research, that will all be explained.  

 

I do have Tomas Chory publication on Wehrmacht Colors and the appropriate Starmer book, and have to agree the two discussed paint colours are extremely close. 

Of course, and never I was thinking there was something deliberately decided or copied. Not at all.
Yet Revell 9 is mentioned by the company itself as RAL 7021. 79 as well. But 9 seems to be a really close match.

https://content.revell.de/downloads/usa/TES_Revell_Paint_Match_Guide.pdf

 

My official RAL 7021 colour card matches Mike's swatch... I can't tell how Mike painted it (and whether he used Revell 9).
Remember, my main focus is on restorations. If I can refer to factory-spec RAL colours, I will. Modellers won't be bying RAL automotive paint, so I get your criticism.
(Though some sellers focus on RAL spec: https://www.oesling-modellbau.com/sw18/farbe-lack/acrylfarbe-wasserverduennbar/glanzgrad-matt/?p=1)

You see, thing is, in real life restorations stating RAL 7021 can be used as SCC14 is like telling children "okay, you CAN have icecream, but take this vanilla".
If it can't be told by mere eyesight my job is done. One may think modelling world can have its errors and you can be worried about it, it is nothing compared to real restorations or museums.
Some are very professional and are keen in doing their best, but I might refer to the puke and grey Jagdtiger up til some years ago in Bovington.
RAL 7002 and RAL 7021 are really "lucky shots". We should be happy they exist.
There is another one. Mike uses Revell 361 for example as Light Green G5. Again this is RAL 6003. Checked it with colour card. Problem with this colour is not the match, yet the debate whether there was a strictly specified G5...

Edited April 11, 2021 by Steben

[Mike Starmer]

You may be getting confused by the name on the tin rather than the colour in the tin.  I chose Revell 9 because it is dead match to BS.987shade No.14.  By eyeball though a grey segmented mask.  What the colour on the tin says is immaterial.  There are many companies who produce paints for modellers, they can name any colour in their range with whatever name they chose.  Because that name might be the same as an official designation, it doesn't follow that the colour is going to match an official standard.  Humbrol for instance, has two colours named olive drab.  Neither of these match, or even come close, to any British standard colour of the name, nor do they match either of the USAAF Dark Olive Dab No.41 and US Army Olive Drab No.9. 

Yes, there is a Light Green No.5.   Samples are in the Canadian archives and Australian archives.  Due to the considerable costs involved I have not been able to see them.  But I have been in contact with others who have.  Since you mentioned Revell 361, that was the nearest colour that I could suggest modellers use.  Since then I have formulated a match based on a very well preserved sample on a Norton motorcycle which I examined in 2007.  That is the colour I now put in my book.  But that might or might not be a good match to the existing archive samples.  Covid has currently put the plan on hold to have the sample checked in Canada.   I am trying to find a 1938 Nobels paint catalogue in which there should be four colours which they produced for the War Office at the time.

[Steben]

On 11/04/2021 at 20:39, Mike Starmer said:

You may be getting confused by the name on the tin rather than the colour in the tin.  I chose Revell 9 because it is dead match to BS.987shade No.14.  By eyeball though a grey segmented mask.  What the colour on the tin says is immaterial.  There are many companies who produce paints for modellers, they can name any colour in their range with whatever name they chose.  Because that name might be the same as an official designation, it doesn't follow that the colour is going to match an official standard.  Humbrol for instance, has two colours named olive drab.  Neither of these match, or even come close, to any British standard colour of the name, nor do they match either of the USAAF Dark Olive Dab No.41 and US Army Olive Drab No.9. 

Yes, there is a Light Green No.5.   Samples are in the Canadian archives and Australian archives.  Due to the considerable costs involved I have not been able to see them.  But I have been in contact with others who have.  Since you mentioned Revell 361, that was the nearest colour that I could suggest modellers use.  Since then I have formulated a match based on a very well preserved sample on a Norton motorcycle which I examined in 2007.  That is the colour I now put in my book.  But that might or might not be a good match to the existing archive samples.  Covid has currently put the plan on hold to have the sample checked in Canada.   I am trying to find a 1938 Nobels paint catalogue in which there should be four colours which they produced for the War Office at the time.

Thanks Mike. Damn covid...

Are those kg3, dg4, lg5 and dark tarmac?