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UK's Puma replacement


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On 04/07/2022 at 16:10, Nigel Bunker said:

Doubtless the pennypinchers at MoD are scouring the world for second hand Pumas to replace the RAF's existing Pumas. 😆 If they're cheap they can't be wrong 🤫

 

There were plenty of Super Pumas going very cheap (something to do with the aircraft rejecting flight a few times and the a rotor head separating from the airframe) - perfect replacement!

 

https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/276775/bristow-challenging-conditions-super-puma/

 

Leonardo have announced the AW149 will be displaying at RIAT this Friday :)

 

https://www.airtattoo.com/airshow/aircraft/aircraft-in-the-spotlight/leonardo-aw149

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On 7/4/2022 at 4:10 PM, Nigel Bunker said:

Doubtless the pennypinchers at MoD are scouring the world for second hand Pumas to replace the RAF's existing Pumas. 😆 If they're cheap they can't be wrong 🤫

MOD's been there, seen that, bought 6 ex RSAF Pumas and then tried to work out how to convert them to RAF ones...  It produced 4 good ac, but at a heck of a cost in time and effort.  Don'y ask me how I know...  Seriously, the Puma design is about as old as the UH-1, and is not really a suitable battlefield helo any more.  The Super Puma 2 may be suitable for CSAR, as with the Caracal, but it's not an agile troop lifter.  Not to mention the degree of "stretch" it has had in the transmission and drive. 

Tim

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11 hours ago, TimB said:

agile troop lifter.

An "agile lifter... kind of the impossible stretch  no?

Either agile OR a spacious heavy? safe lifter... no?

Or you end up, as always with some compromise like  E.g. the Puma.. 😉

 

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To be fair to the puma, it did come from a completely different generation, one in which helicopters were (generally) peculiarly tall and slim - leading to a cabin that was relatively quite a bit longer than it was wide.

 

Modern helicopters have a much more useable space that is significantly wider - quite a few UK air ambulance charities have found this particularly good as it allows much better access and patient treatment.

 

Interesting 360° video showing the available space in the AW149.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gonBAQeL7Q

 

And posting this image, just because it looks awesome!

BEN-OFFICIAL-20210702-145-003.jpg

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7 hours ago, wellsprop said:

And posting this image, just because it looks awesome!

 

Agreed!

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  • 7 months later...

Interesting the article says in service by 2025, that’s remarkably quick by UK defence procurement standards. 


And 44 helicopters, so four squadrons? 
 

The cynic in me thinks it’ll be more like 30 helicopters and by 2028, though perhaps Russia’s war in Ukraine has woken up a few involved in these procurement decisions.

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Nothing has been agreed, on which aircraft/company will be selected, and no contracts signed yet, so 2025 does appear to be extremely dubious.  It takes us that long just to get a Group Build signed off!

 

Mike

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16 hours ago, bootneck said:

2025 does appear to be extremely dubious

I expect that we'll be lucky to get a decision out of Whitehall before 2025, and lucky to see any helicopters before 2030.

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19 hours ago, Lord Riot said:


 

The cynic in me thinks it’ll be more like 30 helicopters and by 2028, though perhaps Russia’s war in Ukraine has woken up a few involved in these procurement decisions.

Chatting to a guy from my Local Army Reserve unit yesterday and it sounds there training regime is changing, stepping up so maybe someone somewhere has decided the world has turned out to be a nasty place after all. 

 

It always was, you know what is said about not learning from history...and people have decided to not learn from history for the last twenty years..

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20 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

This just in. There’s slippage! 🙄

 

Slippage in the Medium Lift Helicopter Replacement Programme is not new.  It began back when Gordon Brown was chancellor, which is when the Puma should have been replaced.  As you can see, a lot has happened in the meantime.

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On 07/03/2023 at 12:20, Lord Riot said:

And 44 helicopters, so four squadrons? 

More like one front line squadron 10-12 a/c, one training squadron 8 aircraft and the rest as hangar queens providing spare parts to keep the others airborne because we won't have bought the right spares packages (again).

 

6 hours ago, Seahawk said:

 

Slippage in the Medium Lift Helicopter Replacement Programme is not new.  It began back when Gordon Brown was chancellor, which is when the Puma should have been replaced.  As you can see, a lot has happened in the meantime.

I remember going to one of the early Puma 2 planning meetings in 2010, one week into my then new job and had to get my boss to sign me off as a suitably qualified and experienced person (SQEP) on Puma which he did.  I then went to my Puma desk officer and asked him to tell me about the Puma.  All I knew about it was that it was an Anglo-French design that had been in service with the RAF for decades and that I had made the Airfix kit of one back in the 1970s!  SQEP - yeah right!  My desk officer should have gone but the powers that be demanded that I attend as the unit Commanding Officer.  Over the next few months I did learn quite quickly (along with every other RW type for which I had responsibility). 

 

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13 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

All I knew about it was that it was an Anglo-French design that had been in service with the RAF for decades and that I had made the Airfix kit of one back in the 1970s!  SQEP - yeah right!  

 

You could have added that Matchbox did a 32nd kit which was updated a number of times when owned by Revell, that Heller had both 1/50 and 1/100 versions (the latter also sold by Roskopf), and you'd have qualified for super-qualified. And that it has a main and tail rotor...

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9 hours ago, Seahawk said:

 

Slippage in the Medium Lift Helicopter Replacement Programme is not new.  It began back when Gordon Brown was chancellor, which is when the Puma should have been replaced.  As you can see, a lot has happened in the meantime.


There was talk of a Puma replacement (by Super Puma) back in the 80s!

Edited by Dave Fleming
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19 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:


Therecwas talk of a Puma replacement (by Super Puma) back in the 80s!

Wasn’t it supposed to be the NH-90? I believe we were part of the project early on and then withdrew (money?)

 

Trevor

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On 3/8/2023 at 9:16 PM, Max Headroom said:

Wasn’t it supposed to be the NH-90? I believe we were part of the project early on and then withdrew (money?)

 

Trevor

 

There was a period when Flight suggested that the leading option might be the Westland WG30... 

 

giphy.gif

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On 3/7/2023 at 11:57 AM, wellsprop said:

An unexpected twist https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/aircraft-propulsion/airbus-teams-boeing-uk-h175m-proposal

 

I suspect this is a very clever partnership, it brings a massive joint capability, both Airbus and Boeing are well established already within MoD procurement etc.

 

Here's a thought, then...

 

This consortium gets the helicopter.

 

Leonardo gets being involved in the M346 contract to provide the RAFAT with a new aircraft as 'consolation', while a couple of AW[insert appropriate number] end up providing VIP or SF transport, or the Army ends up with some more Wildcat ['finest naval helicopter the AAC has ever had']. 

Meanwhile, AAC and RAF types on both Arrse and Pprune bemoan the fact that the answer was, of course, 'Blackhawk'. Or complain that buying into the Tilt-Rotor was the answer, or... (any other variation of the PPrune 'it may, in fact, be the exact right answer, but I'm still going to say that it was wrong' approach to life)

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Looking at who is MD of Airbus helicopters UK or whatever its called my money is on them...that man in charge knows his stuff and doesnt take fools gladly plus he is a sport billy and looks after the lads and lasses ....still the logic of govenmental decisions may skewer this completely ....another govt project on time ....er nope

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