Help needed: Malta Spitfire MkVc reference pics

[StrawLegacy]

Hello guys, first post here and I hope i'm not going against any rule (if yes, feel free to delete my post, and sorry).

Currently looking for any reference for color schemes of 2 Spit MkVctrop used during Malta's club runs:

-GLE BR294, often modeled or in total blue or in desert raf camouflage or also in 2 tone blue camo

-U2 BR124, wich from black and white pics on carrier i know was with a single color camo and is often depicted or as mid grey raf or in blue

 

Thhanks to everyone will help me in my next project!

Edited March 26, 2021 by StrawLegacy
grammar mistake

[Graham Boak]

The single blue colour was Dark Mediterranean Blue.  (See SAM articles by Paul Lucas.)

BR124 arrived on Operation Calendar in DMB.  

BR294 arrived on operation Bowery, and was in Temperate Sea Scheme.  2.U is the delivery codes

Many Spitfires were delivered in Desert colours, and some retained them, but not on those trips.

The two-blues scheme appears to be totally fictional, perhaps someone's interpretation of b&w.  (Shame, it's rather pretty.)

 

The best single source of pictures is Brian Cauchi's book from Stratus on Spitfires on Malta 1942.  Otherwise just Google for them.

[brewerjerry]

Hi. 

     There is the old story of USN deck paint being used 

  Quote from an old flypast forum thread 

 

"Both my father and I remember him saying that the Spitfires were painted with deck paint from the US stores during the voyage." 

 

 

 

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/127570-spitfire-questions-from-a-ignorant-yank

 

 

To save you a Google search there are a few photos in this thread 

 

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235046263-spitfire-a-go-go-and-the-siege-of-maltakopro-spitfire-mkvc-172nd-scale/page/2/

 

 

  Cheers. 

     Jerry 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by brewerjerry

[Graham Boak]

Old and total nonsense.  You don't use ships paint on an aircraft, this was a very high profile (Churchill/Roosevelt) mission so there'd be no "oh, let's repaint some-one else's aircraft just because we think it's a good idea".  Let alone repainting them several times because of altering instructions - although there is an element of truth in that,  They were not repainted inside the crowded hangar deck on a short voyage but in RAF maintenance units before loading.  confirming it.   Malta was already repainting their Spitfires, and requested a maritime scheme for this and future deliveries. (They didn't always get it.)  Edgar Brooks found the appropriate memo and posted it on this forum some years back, The true full story is told in Paul Lucas' articles, complete with further contemporary documentation.

 

This really is another illustration of how once false information has been published, it is next-to-impossible to eradicate.  And I have been guilty of errors in telling this story on the internet in the past, although hopefully with the assumptions made clear - though I bet they weren't every time.

[alt-92]

On 3/27/2021 at 1:22 PM, Graham Boak said:

Let alone repainting them several times because of altering instructions - although there is an element of truth in that,  They were not repainted inside the crowded hangar deck on a short voyage but in RAF maintenance units before loading.  confirming it. 

I've always understood the repaint at MU to have been from however they were delivered to the MidStone/DE Desert scheme - with the Dark MedBlue being applied onboard.

 

Certainly, the well-known pics from loading the planes show a two-tone pattern.

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

These photos  are from the second trip showing TLS.  Don't just quote old and unsupported "bar stories" but read Paul's text based on and quoting original documentation.

 

Incidentally. Wasp's records shows no trace of British paints being loaded (source US historian Ron Smith, IIRC), and there is no USN aircraft paint that anywhere near matches.

[alt-92]

8 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Don't just quote old and unsupported "bar stories" but read Paul's text based on and quoting original documentation.

I don't think it's fair to call topics with contributions of some of your knowledgeable fellow members on here 'bar stories'.
I know it's a hotly debatable topic, which is why I said what I said the way I said it. 

 

 Paul Lucas's articles are not easy to find over here. I do have Cauchi's Malta book on the way (steep price, but hey). Maybe that will help.

And where did I suggest the infamous Deck Blue ?

 

 

[tonyot]

BR124, U-2 ;

 

DELETED

 

A few GL-E`s,,,,,,, the code E seems to have been a particularly unlucky code on 185 Sqn! 

 

BR126, GL-E;

 

DELETED

 

And confirming that the codes were indeed yellow;

 

DELETED

 

BR294, GL-E,..... sent to me by Malta veteran Walter Gillman, please do not reproduce this elsewhere on the net;

 

DELETED

DELETED

 

Another `UNLUCKY E'..... poss ER740?

 

DELETED

DELETED

 

I won`t comment on colours and markings as it is obvious that a slanging match has already started,..... so I`ll just post the pics requested,

Cheers

          Tony 

 

******EDIT,.... As I`ve been sent a rather cryptic PM which appears to be questioning the source of the photos I`ve posted,..... I`ve had to delete them,.... I do hope that the person asking for help has seen them!

Edited March 28, 2021 by tonyot

[brewerjerry]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

,........

Incidentally. Wasp's records shows no trace of British paints being loaded (source US historian Ron Smith, IIRC), and there is no USN aircraft paint that anywhere near matches.

Hi. 

     Interesting that no trace of British paints being loaded, so some type of USN paint was used ? 

 

 

   The USN deck stain was blue according to this link below 

 

   I am not saying the spitfire were painted in this but it is I think nice to point out all the theories that are around 

 

  

 

https://www.shipcamouflage.com/specialtopics/BlueFlightDecks.html#:~:text=By the time Hornet repainted,sailing on her shakedown cruise.

 

 

   Cheers 

     Jerry 

Edited March 28, 2021 by brewerjerry
To enable link

[Mike]

16 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Don't just quote old and unsupported "bar stories" but read Paul's text based on and quoting original documentation.

 

On 27/03/2021 at 12:22, Graham Boak said:

Old and total nonsense.

 

Graham, could you work a bit on the tactfulness of your verbiage please matey?  You've got a ton of knowledge in that head of yours, but sometimes the way you express your opinion doesn't come across very well to those of us that don't know you.

[LiamA]

Re the Paul Lucas coverage in SAM re Malta colours does anyone know  the date of the issue? thanks Liam.

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

Lucas Malta Spitfire colour articles in SAM:

 

December 2015 A Malta Story The Spitfire Mk Vcs of Operation Newman and Calendar Part 1 Operation Newman 4-13th April 1942
January 2016 A Malta Story The Spitfire Mk Vcs of Operation Newman and Calendar Part 2 Operation Calendar 13-20 April 1942
August 2017 A Malta Story Continued Part 1 Operation Oppidian, Hansford and Bowery. USS Wasp's Second Spitfire delivery to Malta 24 April to 9 May 1942
September 2017 A Malta Story Continue Part 2 Colloquial Camouflage Malta Spitfires delivered via Gibraltar 18 May to 17 August 1942

 

Issue data picked here from BM (Graham Boak comes to my mind).

Magzter.com has electronic back issues and I got mine there. Price was little short of 5 pounds per issue?

 

Cheers,

Kari

[LiamA]

Thanks for the info Kari.

[Dana Bell]

There's a very strong possibility that the Spits that were repainted on board Wasp were repainted in US Navy paints.  In early 1942 the Navy was investigating a color called Dark Blue as a replacement for its Blue Gray camouflage.  The Navy was very sensitive about lighter-colored aircraft making their ships more visible to enemy aircraft - and those Spits were certainly lighter than the Navy wanted at the time.  Dark Blue was an aircraft paint matched to - you guessed it - Deck Blue.  Wasp was one of the two ships stocked with Dark Blue for evaluation.

 

None of this proves that Dark Blue was used, but we know some of those Spits were repainted with a camouflage paint that was on board Wasp, and we know that Dark Blue was one of the colors Wasp stocked.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Graham Boak]

Dana, according to British records the Spitfires were painted blue - some being repainted - before departure.  Is there any real evidence that any Spitfire was repainted on board?  Not the easiest of activities in a crowded hangar at high speed. 

 

Just how much of this paint was carried?   Enough for an experiment involving 50 Spitfires but none of Wasp's own aircraft?  Photos show the dark Spitfires on deck alongside light F4Fs, and photos of Wasp's other aircraft offloaded to Orkney show no signs of repainting whilst there.  A very odd way of conducting any experiment, which would after all only require a small amount of paint for a few aircraft and could be carried out anywhere in the Continental States.   Further, I fail to see any reason why a light-coloured Spitfire in the hangar other than at launch would be any more a problem than light coloured F4Fs: and just what measurements were taken, how were any results of this experiment be decided on or judged?   Where is the report on such an experiment?  After this highly politically-visible operation, the captain is going to go back and say "Sorry, we couldn't be bothered to try this ourselves but repainted someone else's aircraft instead"?

 

Remember, Malta had already requested sea colour for this delivery: there was no way anyone on the British side would have known that Wasp was going to be carrying an experimental colour before she even arrived.

[Ed Russell]

The anecdotal evidence (which one may or may not believe) is that it was an ad hoc wardroom decision to use Wasp paint. Looking through Paul Lucas' articles  (which refer to exactly what @Dana Bell has said above) it seems that the experiment was to paint half of the F4F aircraft with this colour. This had been done and the remaining paint was surplus. According to PL, this may explain why some Spitfires appear about the same as the F4F in colour and some are darker in different pictures.

Any model like this is going to be more conjectural than many but it seems a lot of less valid schemes have appeared in profiles in the last hundred years.

[Graham Boak]

I've hauled out Paul's articles and I fear we both may be mis-remembering different parts, but nowhere is there any comment of a USN colour of any kind being used or considered.   Summarising, it appears that aircraft for the initial trip (Operation Calendar) were repainted into Temperate Sea Scheme.  It appears that some of these may have been in error as using Dark Sea Grey rather than Extra Dark, but this isn't clear.  What is clear is that when Sq. Ldr. "Jumbo" Gracey arrives from Malta to lead the ferry flights, he insists that this was not the desired scheme and a repaint of all aircraft is required.  The desired colour is separately referred to in separate records as a deep blue, and as a Mediterranean blue.  Which if not the Air Ministry colour Dark Mediterranean Blue rather leaves us wondering just what it was, and even more so just what Malta was using in the first place!  Supplies of this paint was sent to Glasgow and carried on board Wasp.  (Note that this contradicts a statement made elsewhere that Wasp's records show no sign of any such acceptance.) 

 

Because the supply of this paint was not adequate for all aircraft to be repainted on board, perhaps two thirds were delivered in TSS, according to Paul, but I have to add that these single-tone aircraft appear to have been disproportionally photographed.   Perhaps this isn't surprising.  Whether Malta was unhappy with TSS to the extent of requiring overpainting seems unlikely, but then the Calendar aircraft suffered severe attrition although this appears to have been exaggerated - many saw continuing service so are likely to have made use of Malta's workshops.

 

Gracey's comments appear to have been ignored when it comes to the second delivery (Operation Bowery), which shows aircraft in TSS (certainly a disruptive camouflage) both in the hangar and on deck before the launch.  And even more so for future deliveries seen in desert colours.  Evidence for this can be seen not only in photos but in Barnham's biography:  he flies off Wasp in a blue-grey aircraft but later observes from the ground a shot-down Spitfire falling in desert colours.

[alt-92]

Figures. A repaint, dockside or MU, would have been more time consuming and - fair to say - a good bit neater, likely using spray guns. 

The hangar photo of BR124 shows brush strokes. 

 

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi!

 

Paul Lucas speculates use of:

• Dark Blue similar to 250-N flight deck stain and Deck Blue 20-B
• M-485 Non Specular Blue Gray

and that the anecdotes belong to Operation Bowery in the SAM August 2017 article.

 

The issue has SAM subs section with one page "A Malta Story Addendum" by Lucas, too. There is more pondering about the blue(s) on Wasp. It is the last page of the electronic issue and separate from the article itself. Do not know about the paper magazine.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Edited April 5, 2021 by Kari Lumppio

[Graham Boak]

I have it from the subscriber's edition of the magazine.  He speculates on it, but offers no evidence that it was used.  Ifs buts maybes.

[brewerjerry]

17 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

There's a very strong possibility that the Spits that were repainted on board Wasp were repainted in US Navy paints.  In early 1942 the Navy was investigating a color called Dark Blue as a replacement for its Blue Gray camouflage.  The Navy was very sensitive about lighter-colored aircraft making their ships more visible to enemy aircraft - and those Spits were certainly lighter than the Navy wanted at the time.  Dark Blue was an aircraft paint matched to - you guessed it - Deck Blue.  Wasp was one of the two ships stocked with Dark Blue for evaluation.

 

None of this proves that Dark Blue was used, but we know some of those Spits were repainted with a camouflage paint that was on board Wasp, and we know that Dark Blue was one of the colors Wasp stocked.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

Hi Dana,

                Interesting thoughts & info

 

 so not the deck paint theory then 

 

   But could possibly have been a paint of the same colour

 

    which would explain to me the deck paint story remembered by vets if it was the same colour 

 

    Cheers 

      Jerry 

   

 

[Dana Bell]

Hi Graham & all,

 

I wish I had more evidence; I really wish I had proof, either way!

 

This all came up years ago when the discussion pointed out that the Spits couldn't have been painted with Navy paint, since they were so much darker than the nearby Wildcats.  Finding documentation that Wasp was one of two ships to experiment with Dark Blue only opened a possibility, one that I can't yet discount.

 

Dark Blue was far more common than any of our secondary publications would suggest.  Blue Gray was listed as a problem (too light) in December 1941.  By the end of 1942 the Navy issued orders to paint aircraft in Blue Gray, but that the Blue Gray paint was to be matched to Dark Blue.  In 1943 thousands of gallons of Dark Blue were shipped to the South Pacific alone.

 

It's just a possibility to be evaluated with the others - if some Spits were painted on board Wasp, and if those Spits were a dark Blue, and if records suggest that no British paints were carried by Wasp, it's possible that the Dark Blue stocks were used.

 

That's all I can offer.  I hope the Archives reopen one day soon...

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

[Graham Boak]

There is however British records that British paint was carried on Wasp.  If not taken into Wasp's own stores then they likely may not have been registered in ship's store records.

[brewerjerry]

On 3/28/2021 at 11:23 AM, Graham Boak said:

 

.........

13 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

There is however British records that British paint was carried on Wasp.  If not taken into Wasp's own stores then they likely may not have been registered in ship's store records.

 

........

 

Incidentally. Wasp's records shows no trace of British paints being loaded (source US historian Ron Smith, IIRC) ........

 

Hi 

    Seems the usual thing I find when researching official records.

 

They conflict 

 

Maybe as Dana says one day records may turn up to prove one way or the other 

 

    Cheers 

      Jerry 

 

 

 

     

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by brewerjerry

[Graham Boak]

Expanding a little here: there were a number of other materials and tools that would have been required, or at least in reserve, for the operation of Spitfires from the Wasp.  The liquid-cooled engines would requires specific coolant, and it seems unlikely that the precise oils elsewhere were identical.  It is fair to assume that the Spitfires would come aboard full, but leaks are ever-present and stocks of these liquids would have been required for topping-up (even without assuming anything more significant such as a split pipe).   The RAF technical staff would also have had their own stock of tools, from engine starters to screwdrivers, and most likely a small stock of aircraft spares for those items known to be unreliable.  All these would have held these against their unit and individual stocks, and it is unlikely that they were ever listed against the Wasp stores.  I see the paints, rushed on board at a very late stage, would have been held by the sub-unit together with all the other Spitfire-specific materials.  Other than probably temporary storage in a safe place, there would have been no need to concern Wasp's stores clerks.

 

Unless anyone can show that all these items were carefully listed against the Wasp, I don't think that the absence of British paints in USN records proves anything.

 

On another matter, the suggestion is floated above that Malta may have overpainted Dark Slate Grey in the Temperate Sea Scheme with their favourite dark blue.  I think the key point here is the term "Malta".  There is no indication that any part of the TSS was overpainted in any way on any of the other types operated from Malta.  Beaufighters, Beauforts, Albacores, Swordfish, etc.  There is possible confusion here with the reported Dark/Light Mediterranean Blue on some Beauforts, but this is linked to operations from Alexandria with the no suggestion that the detachments on Malta were overpainted in any way - the only available colour photo shows TSS.  I would say that there is no good reason for Malta to overpaint the DSG, attractive though the option is.  However, I have to point out that this overpainting began, and continued a long time, with 249 Sq at Takali.  Even at a late stage, their aircraft have a single dark topside.  So did any Takali-based Spitfires in TSS have their aircraft overpainted - could well be, but in this case I suspect a full overpainting rather than a partial.  I have considerable doubts about the practice extending to Hal Far units after the initial delivery, at least consistently.