bootneck Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 I am trying to source a good 3-view plan and profile of a 5MT Stanier Black 5 locomotive, for a scratchbuild, but all I can find is a 2-view of a British Rail Standard Class 5. Can anyone confirm if these are both the same locomotive? Also, can anyone help with better plans? cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 No, Stanier Black five was a Stanier designed loco introduced c.1935, Standard 5 was a British Rail designed loco overseen by Riddles introduced c.1951 I think the Standard 5 was an update on Stanier Black 5. Main difference was height of running plate and position of whistle. Stanier 5s were a big class and I think there was quite a number of variances during their history. Observers book of Railway Locomotives 1966 was my source. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circloy Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) try to find drawings by Roche or Skinley (Roache being more accurate/less prone to errors) Some are available in book form and surprisingle inexpensive. link another link Yet a third link Think you'll strugle to get a plan view. I've seen your active on RMweb have you asked there? Edited March 29, 2021 by Circloy additional ref Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootneck Posted March 29, 2021 Author Share Posted March 29, 2021 Thanks, I shall have a looksee. Yes, I've asked loads of questions on there; I think they are getting a bit fed up of me now. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 A good one-stop-shop reference on the Stanier Black 5 is Locomotives in Detail 2 – Stanier 4-6-0 Class 5 by Jennison and Clarke. (Ian Allen). Not only does it have 4mm drawings by Ian Beattie but the book takes a modeller's (or anorak's) view of the subject, pointing out and illustrating details and variations in a huge class produced over many years. Not long ago this book could be found cheap, remaindered. If you were interested in the BR Standard 5 (which you aren't), there's Clarke's British Railways Standard Class 5, also published by Ian Allen but not in the Locomotives In Detail series. Similar treatment and again with 4mm multiview plans from Ian Beattie. Again, I got mine remaindered. The Ian Beattie drawings look fine to me but I haven't actually assessed them against the real thing, LMS and BR not really being my subject. Sorry, I'm away from my references at the moment so I can't tell you how many views the drawings show. I think they are 4 view (both sides, front and plan), with the tender being covered separately. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig of the Week Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) May be of use... Edited March 30, 2021 by Pig of the Week 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootneck Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 Thanks, that's the sort of thing I am looking for. Although a bit faint, for my old eyes, it looks as if I can get quite a few dimensions out of it. Just a query, as I'm new to locomotives, do railway drawings ever show top or underside views, as do aircraft drawings? Another query, with the modeller/scratchbuilder in mind, how do we discern what the chassis looks like? Those wheels virtually hide everything. cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circloy Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Pig of the Week said: May be of use... That's a standard 5, understand @bootneck is looking for black 5. Very rare to get plan views of steam loco's. There is a tendancy for plan views of of diesel loco's but these too can be hit or miss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 @Heather Kay Might be able to help, right up her street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig of the Week Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 14 minutes ago, Circloy said: That's a standard 5, understand @bootneck is looking for black 5. Very rare to get plan views of steam loco's. There is a tendancy for plan views of of diesel loco's but these too can be hit or miss Sorry, but I understood he was looking for a Standard 5 !...well it doesn't hurt to have for reference in any case, tbh it's probably easier to find details of a Black 5, there's quite a few still running I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Kay Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 28 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said: @Heather Kay Might be able to help, right up her street. I wouldn’t guarantee it. While I have reference material most is in photographic form. Photos are far more useful for folk like me, for picking the fiddly details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootneck Posted March 30, 2021 Author Share Posted March 30, 2021 Thanks all. To be honest, I would be happy just to get decent drawings of either; just so that I can start a CAD drawing. I'm very interested in doing a medium/large (anything bigger than a GWR Prairie) that would have travelled through Birmingham New Street which I believer were LMS, LNWR, BR. I chose a Black 5 as it was mentioned on a New Street Station photo; however, I have since learned that Jubilee's and Pacifics went through New Street. Does anyone know if the Mogul also passed through there? If so, I could get a Dapol OO/HO plastic kit and use that for measurements, in order to downscale to N gauge. cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig of the Week Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) There's apparently six Black 5s in fully running order authorised to run on main lines, and at least that many in addition undergoing maintenance and or refurb / restoration... I think there's a few Standard 5s still in existance but only a couple that have run to any degree. There's Lot's of B5 photos out there on t'internet as they were a very common workhorse type loco right to the end of steam in Britain. Hornby do Black 5s, you could, as a dodge, buy a cheapo scrap 'body only' from Evilbay and take your dimensions from that for your scratch build, scaling up or down as required..just a thought.. Edit, just remembered I have got a Hornby Black 5 stashed and could do you some photos if that helps.. Edited March 31, 2021 by Pig of the Week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry1954 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 I see you are into locomotives too Mike ...... snap! I've recently been heavily distracted that way, and I'm currently re building an old Kemilway etch chassis for the Airfix Mogul, to P4 scale (4mm), amongst other things! Need to source a Mogul for the body yet. Scratchbuilding a Black 5 or a Mogul will be quite a challenge I reckon, good luck! I'll rummage through my books and plans to see what I have. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 I don't think so, well, pretty sure they are not. Inspired by, almost certainly, but not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian fish Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 hahttps://wildswanbooks.co.uk/Books/Mixed-Traffic-Black5-Profile5-Sup.htm Have a look at these! great books and very well researched I think the class has three volumes overall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circloy Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Whilst the pictoral suplements are very good for detail/variant photographs It's the corresponding Profile book that contains any drawings. Because of the many variants of the LMS black 5 it was covered by three profile books (LMS loco profile no 5, no 6 & no 7) and two profile books one each to No 5 & no 6. Suspect @bootneck may be interested in these STD 5 /5MT STD 5 - 5MT LMS BLACK5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootneck Posted May 15, 2021 Author Share Posted May 15, 2021 Thank you for the info on the profiles and rail album, they are very interestiing. Also thanks to Ian for the link, I have ordered profile 5 and 6. cheers, Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian fish Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 https://www.billhudsontransportbooks.co.uk/bhtb/bh11660/a-detailed-history-of-the-stanier-class-five-4-6-0s/ another worth a look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian fish Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 https://www.irwellpress.com/ also have a few nice publications on the subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 On 3/30/2021 at 6:37 PM, Seahawk said: A good one-stop-shop reference on the Stanier Black 5 is Locomotives in Detail 2 – Stanier 4-6-0 Class 5 by Jennison and Clarke. (Ian Allen). Not only does it have 4mm drawings by Ian Beattie but the book takes a modeller's (or anorak's) view of the subject, pointing out and illustrating details and variations in a huge class produced over many years. Not long ago this book could be found cheap, remaindered. If you were interested in the BR Standard 5 (which you aren't), there's Clarke's British Railways Standard Class 5, also published by Ian Allen but not in the Locomotives In Detail series. Similar treatment and again with 4mm multiview plans from Ian Beattie. Again, I got mine remaindered. The Ian Beattie drawings look fine to me but I haven't actually assessed them against the real thing, LMS and BR not really being my subject. Sorry, I'm away from my references at the moment so I can't tell you how many views the drawings show. I think they are 4 view (both sides, front and plan), with the tender being covered separately. Just checked. The Stanier Black 5 book has 4 view drawings of the locomotive (both sides, plan and front) plus 3 views of the 4000 gall tender (LHS, rear and plan) plus single LHS views of some of the valve gear variations. All drawings are dimensioned (overall length/width, wheel spacings). The Standard 5 book has 3-view plans (LHS, plan and front) plus LHS and front of the Caprotti valve gear variant plus 3 view drawings (plan, LHS and rear) of a BR1 tender and LHS and rear views of both a BR1A and BR1B tender. Plus more detail photos than you can shake a stick at. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootneck Posted June 2, 2021 Author Share Posted June 2, 2021 Thanks again everyone. There's plenty of detail in the profile books that I ordered, included some very large pull-out drawings which are amazing. I was once told that for every up, there is a down; and vice-versa, and the downside of all this lovely data is that it is just too much for me. There's no way that I am going to identify and fit all that detail into CAD or even get a good 3D print with my amateur skills; so, I have plunged into loco kit building. I have bought an etch kit of a Black 5 which contains the chassis and lower body, which is a start. Later, I shall buy more of the components; such as the white metal boiler/smokebox, cylinder valves and chimney etc. and, eventually, the wheels, connecting rods and buffers etc. The books I have bought will then give me the information to help detail, paint and furnish the loco to, hopefully, a nice little model. cheers, Mike 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian fish Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Brassmasters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootneck Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 2mm Association kit. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandsaw Steve Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 Great project! 👍 Hope this one goes really well for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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