B-24J Liberator GR Mk VI Coastal Command new project (Historian needed)

[Ravnos]

16 hours ago, Mark Harmsworth said:

How about his service record? That's a specific form held by the RAF which, amongst a lot of other stuff, lists training and postings - so that would show all the squadrons and locations with dates. If the family doesnt have it then the nearest relative can apply for it from the RAF. I found that very useful for tracking down details.

 

Mark

 

Service record should be on its way, as his closest living relative my mother has to be the one to apply for it which she's done but only in the last week or so, hopefully it wont take long to arrive but according to the website it can take quite a long time for them to process the request.

I wasn't sure how useful it would be as I've no idea what kind of information was recorded in the service record, I was assuming it might just be location and squadron postings along with dates.

 

The thought also occurs that this thread is devolving a bit from talking about the Liberator and turning into more of a personal history, as a Newbie around here let me know if this is too off topic for this section of the forum 😆

[BBRBOB]

I am waiting on the RAF service records of my Uncle and when I gently asked how long it might take I got the following - "Unfortunately the result of 3 national lockdowns, us being in a Tier 4 area prior to the current lockdown and a 21% increase in the number of applications received, has meant that our despatch times (which are normally 20 working days) have slipped to 6 months and will continue to increase until we are able to return to office".  I think we might be waiting awhile for them! 🙄

Edited March 19, 2021 by BBRBOB

[Aidrian]

On 3/16/2021 at 5:52 PM, Ravnos said:

So I managed to convince my mother to drag the pictures out again and have a better look at the serial number and we have a winner! can confirm that the 2V-B in my grandfathers pictures is KG869.

Interesting  - the same machine at a different time and place and being used by another Squadron come up othe IWM photos site. I wonder what the chances were of the same Liberator being photagraphed twice, so far apart?   

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209746

[Ravnos]

4 hours ago, Aidrian said:

Interesting  - the same machine at a different time and place and being used by another Squadron come up othe IWM photos site. I wonder what the chances were of the same Liberator being photagraphed twice, so far apart?   

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209746

That is interesting, I guess its not impossible, it does make it a pretty well photographed plane then, when looking for pictures of 547's liberators its always that one picture of 2V-B that comes up. I'm in the process of going through the ORB's at the moment which at the end of each month have been including the aircraft they have received as they transitioned from wellingtons to liberators (only noticed this last night) its possible that it might have a record of where the aircraft went after the squadron was disbanded at the end of the war.

 

4 hours ago, BBRBOB said:

I am waiting on the RAF service records of my Uncle and when I gently asked how long it might take I got the following - "Unfortunately the result of 3 national lockdowns, us being in a Tier 4 area prior to the current lockdown and a 21% increase in the number of applications received, has meant that our despatch times (which are normally 20 working days) have slipped to 6 months and will continue to increase until we are able to return to office".  I think we might be waiting awhile for them! 🙄

 

Yeh 6 months was the estimate I got as well.... fingers crossed this Covid madness ends soon and the world can go back to normal!

[EwenS]

4 hours ago, Aidrian said:

Interesting  - the same machine at a different time and place and being used by another Squadron come up othe IWM photos site. I wonder what the chances were of the same Liberator being photagraphed twice, so far apart?   

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209746

I’ll have another go as my last post seems to have disappeared.

 

i don’t believe it is the same aircraft just an error in the IWM caption. My references indicate KG869 never served with 220 as I noted in its history in a previous post.

 

Now for a bit of a mystery. Both the books I’ve referred to in that previous post have a photo of ZZ-K which may have been from a cropped version of the photo you posted or another in a sequence taken at the same time. Both books have it dated to 18 April 1945. 

 

The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth Service (the RAF Liberator “bible”) gives it as KG865/ZZ-K which was with 220 squadron from Oct 1944 and is next listed with 1 TAMU in Nov 1945 for conversion to a transport.

 

In the JaPo book on 311 sqn it is KG868/ZZ-K. BUT the “bible” also has this aircraft with 220 sqn (but with no aircraft letter given) from Dec 1944. It is next listed with 1 TAMU in Sept 1945.

 

I’m happy it isn’t 869. But is it 865 or 868?

 

As for it, whichever aircraft it is, being photographed on different squadrons then I think you would be surprised about the probability. Firstly, 220 although based in the Azores, was still part of Coastal Command in the UK and its aircraft rotated through U.K. based MU etc for deep servicing when necessary. Secondly, there were relatively few Liberator squadrons in CC in 1944/45 - 9 in total. Thirdly squadrons often swapped out all their aircraft for new to them machines as their role changed or new equipment arrived.

 

By way of example of the last point, 311 squadron used rocket equipped GR.V in early 1944 (rockets in the bomb bay). When U-boats got snorkels, rockets became useless so those aircraft were swapped for other GR.V aircraft with the bomb bay configured for depth charges. The rocket aircraft then rotated through MUs or SAL at Prestwick to be reconfigured for reissue to other squadrons as necessary. Later still in early 1945 as other squadrons received brand new Liberator GR.VIII, 311 got hand me down Leigh Light equipped GR.VI that had been used by those other squadrons. Many CC Liberators, especially early models, had long lives passing though the hands of several units.

 

 

[Ravnos]

So last week I managed to make the trip up to my mothers house and got a good look at the photographs which confirmed what we had managed to figure out so far, serial numbers etc. I took pictures of all the pages in the album for later reference and added them all to an album on Google Photos.

 

If anyone is interested and wants to have a look you should be able to view the album Here. (let me know it it doesnt work and I'll shift them to Imgur instead)

 

The pictures should be in order of the pages in the album which are in the order my grandfather originally stuck them in, which ....isn't, chronological as far as I can tell. I took some close ups where there was interesting detail which should be imediately after the full page.

 

Sadly my phone didnt process some of the pictures correctly and sections of the image were lost but I didnt notice until I was back home so nothing I can do about it now.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Ravnos

[72modeler]

@Ravnos,

 

Welcome to BM from me, as well. As you are discovering, there are a ton of people who frequent this website that have incredible knowledge, reference material, and modeling skills who go out of their way to share them, and especially with those new to the hobby and/or the website. What a wonderful tribute to your grandfather, whom you never got to meet, that a model of his Liberator will be. That  was one very pretty Mk VI and the Lib always looked its best in Coastal Command colors, in my opinion. ( @tonyot made me say that!) Thanks for sharing your grandfather's story and the photos. Can't wait to see the finished model! One of the best ways we  can carry forward and preserve the history of these aircraft and the young men who flew  and maintained them is through our models. Good luck on your modeling project!

Mike

[Ravnos]

Thanks for the kind words @72modeler, I can't wait to get started and share the progress, but its probably going to be a little while before I tackle the Liberator as I want to get some practice in on other models first to make sure I can do it justice. If I build anything worth sharing in the mean time I'll post it in the relavent area

[Coors54]

Hi Ravnos, what an interesting thread and journey for you, the side trips into family history make the build so much more than just a model, and after all we watch Who Do You Think You Are? on TV and it's rarely as interesting. And I've always loved a CC Lib, this might tempt me to make an aircraft again.

Your grandfather was a quite prolific photographer (for the time) and some of those pictures are really interesting and not just the aircraft, I can see the ones of the ships and submarines being of great interest to naval modellers, so if you get the chance to scan them properly they could help with the camouflage and colour conundrums that bug them as much as aircraft modellers. 

 

Dave

[Ravnos]

13 hours ago, Coors54 said:

Hi Ravnos, what an interesting thread and journey for you, the side trips into family history make the build so much more than just a model, and after all we watch Who Do You Think You Are? on TV and it's rarely as interesting. And I've always loved a CC Lib, this might tempt me to make an aircraft again.

Your grandfather was a quite prolific photographer (for the time) and some of those pictures are really interesting and not just the aircraft, I can see the ones of the ships and submarines being of great interest to naval modellers, so if you get the chance to scan them properly they could help with the camouflage and colour conundrums that bug them as much as aircraft modellers. 

 

Dave

 

Thanks Dave,

 

Yes some of the pictures are amazing, we joked that they were probably highly classified at the time (no idea what the rules were for them taking personal pictures from the planes) I'm hoping we can properly digitize the whole lot but need to work out the best way to do it, I dont currently own a scanner thats up to the task. If and when I manage to get a good set of scans I'll post them up in case they are useful to someone, or theres a chance that someone on here is related to one of the people in the pictures, would be nice to re-unite them with photographs they maby didnt know existed.

[Jim Spackman]

I'm a bit late to this!

 

My grandfather was a Navigator with 547 Squadron from January 1944 to March 1945. I've got some pages of his log book and can confirm that 2V-B was KG869 as he flew in it a few times. He flew as Second Navigator in the Brockwell crew and then became First Navigator in the Roberts crew. He was Flt Lt W E T (Bill) Jones. I have a photo of the Roberts crew that's very obviously taken in the same chairs in front of the same hut!

 

I've downloaded the ORB pages and remember seeing the name Methven when I was looking through them. They were probably in the same flight as each other as they both flew "B". The 547 ORB only gives ID letters for aircraft but his logbook has the A/C serial number so I can cross reference the two.

 

If you haven't got that far I'll check Bill's log books and see if he flew H, if it's in there it'll have a serial number.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Jim Spackman

[Admiral Puff]

A mate (now no longer with us) joined the RAAF during the Second Great Unpleasantness and trained as a pilot, eventually being posted to bombers. He trained on Tiger Moths (Australia), Ansons (Canada), and Oxfords (UK) before doing his heavy conversion on Stirlings and being posted to 622 Sqn RAF to fly, and eventually command, Lancasters, earning a DFC along the way. Your grandfather would have followed a not dissimilar route, so you have a fairly wide selection of types at your disposal.

[Jim Spackman]

My grandfather did. Joined up in 1939 and was set to Canada to train as a pilot. He ended up qualifying as a navigator and was kept there as an instructor. He volunteered for combat to get back to the UK as he had three kids, one that he hadn't even seen!

 

His first Squadron was RNZAF 489 flying Hampden torpedo bombers from May to December 43 when the Squadron re-equipped with Beaufighters which needed a specialist navigator/wireless op/gunner so he transferred to 547. He finished his tour (46 missions) in March 45, one of those being Operation Chili, the attack on Baltic shipping off Bornholm. Interestingly, the aircraft he flew that one in was the one under discussion here, KG869 2V-B.

 

After his tour, he went to Gibraltar as part of the crew of the Governor's personal aircraft.

[Jim Spackman]

Ok folks, here are some 547 Squadron photos...

 

Roberts crew, my grandfather is the dapper looking chap in the cap front row, second from right. Crew as follows-

 

Eddie Foster (W/Op AG) Bill Wilkinson (W/op AG/ Radar)  Pip Rackley (2nd Pilot) Arthur Glanville ( Flt Engineer)    Johnnie Day (W/Op AG/ Radar)

 

David Robinson (AG)  Ross Singleton (2nd Nav)  Derek Roberts (1st Pilot)  Bill Jones (1st Nav)-my grandfather Mac McLuckie (W/Op/Mechanic) 

 

 

Logbook pages showing Operation Chilli (annotated in red) in our subject aircraft, KG869 (2V-B). 

 

 

 

Liberators of 547 Squadron escort the surrendered German cruiser Nurnberg. My grandfather had left the Squadron by then so was not part of this operation.

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Jim Spackman

[Ravnos]

On 1/18/2022 at 6:09 PM, Jim Spackman said:

Ok folks, here are some 547 Squadron photos...

 

Roberts crew, my grandfather is the dapper looking chap in the cap front row, second from right. Crew as follows-

 

             Eddie Foster (W/Op AG)       Bill Wilkinson  (W/op AG/ Radar)      Pip Rackley (2nd Pilot)           Arthur Glanville ( Flt Engineer)    Johnnie Day (W/Op AG/ Radar)

 

     David Robinson (AG)                 Ross Singleton (2nd Nav)          Derek Roberts (1st Pilot)     Bill Jones (1st Nav)-my grandfather  Mac McLuckie (W/Op/Mechanic) 

 

 

Logbook pages showing Operation Chilli (annotated in red) in our subject aircraft, KG869 (2V-B). 

 

 

 

Liberators of 547 Squadron escort the surrendered German cruiser Nurnberg. My grandfather had left the Squadron by then so was not part of this operation.

 

 

 

 

 

That's Amazing! thanks for sharing the pictures Jim, Apologies for the slow reply, I didnt get a notification so hadn't realised there had been any more replies to this one.

 

I still find it fairly mindblowing how much information and other connected stories have come from this forum post, from people stationed at the same bases to being in the same squadron, and ultimately the uniform resurfacing still totally amazes me 😁

[Jim Spackman]

Yes, I've done some research on my grandfather's previous Squadron 489 RNZAF and ended up in touch with a guy who's written a book about it. When my copy arrived, there's grandad and his crew, a photo none of the family had ever seen.

 

Kind of weird knowing that our grandfathers would have known each other and flew in the same aircraft!

 

I'm on a mobile device right now but when I'm on the computer next I'll post all the serial numbers that I can tie to id letters.

 

You WILL need a Leigh Light kit by the way! The 547 GRVIs were all LL equipped!

[Ravnos]

4 hours ago, Jim Spackman said:

Yes, I've done some research on my grandfather's previous Squadron 489 RNZAF and ended up in touch with a guy who's written a book about it. When my copy arrived, there's grandad and his crew, a photo none of the family had ever seen.

 

Kind of weird knowing that our grandfathers would have known each other and flew in the same aircraft!

 

I'm on a mobile device right now but when I'm on the computer next I'll post all the serial numbers that I can tie to id letters.

 

You WILL need a Leigh Light kit by the way! The 547 GRVIs were all LL equipped!

 

Confirmation of the serial numbers would be great thanks, just so I know what ive got is right and yeh its crazy when you think about it that they almost certainly knew each other. 

 

I was semi aware of the Leigh light, I however have the fantastic looking Eduard Coastal Command Liberator kit (#2123 Riders in the Sky version) on the shelf behind me and I'm 99% sure it includes the Leigh Light but I'll make sure before I start.

[Chuck1945]

11 minutes ago, Ravnos said:

…

I was semi aware of the Leigh light, I however have the fantastic looking Eduard Coastal Command Liberator kit (#2123 Riders in the Sky version) on the shelf behind me and I'm 99% sure it includes the Leigh Light but I'll make sure before I start.

It does

[Jim Spackman]

Update on this, for future modellers of 547 Squadron aircraft, these are the serial numbers and aircraft ID letters that I've been able to gather from my research cross referencing my grandfather Bill's logbooks and the Squadron ORBs. Although the subject aircraft on this thread is a GRVI I've included the ones for the GRV versions he flew in 1944 until those were replaced in case anyone is building one of those in the future. There are a whole bunch of GRVs dating from 20/3/44 (his first Op with 547) but unfortunately I don't have serial numbers for those as I don't have all the logbook pages. The ones I have listed here start at 6/7/44.  

 

As for Leigh lights, some but not all of the aircraft were equipped with Leigh Lights in the early part of Bill's service with 547 and fortunately the ORB distinguishes these from the non LL equipped ones so I've marked them as LL where they did have one fitted. The fitment of Leigh Lights seems to have been completed during September 1944, coincidentally when the the GRVs were finally phased out. All of his GRVI missions were in Leigh Light equipped versions as far as I can tell and the number of night Ops seems to have ramped up significantly by then indicating that 547 was largely a night ops unit from then on.

 

In the GRVI column you'll notice a duplicate for 2V-H with different serial numbers, The original "H" EW299 was lost with its crew off the coast of Norway not long after Bill last flew in it. 

 

GRV 

2V-Q BZ821     LL      

2V-G BZ979     LL 

2V-C  BZ879     

2V-O BZ794     

 

 

 

GRVI (all Leigh Light)

2V-E  EW307     

2V-F  EW296

2V-N EV995   

2V-P  EW296

2V-H  EW299  (Flew in this aircraft 15/10/44, it was subsequently lost on 28/10/44)  

2V-Q  EV933

2V-V  KG860

2V-D  KG898

2V-L  EW316

2V-F  EW296

2V-C  KG917   

2V-H  KG867   (replacement for EW299)

2V-B   KG869   

2V-L  EW316

2V-K  KG917

2V-X  EW294  

 

Over to you modellers!

 

 

 

      

   

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Jim Spackman

[Ravnos]

On 3/8/2022 at 5:18 PM, Jim Spackman said:

Update on this, for future modellers of 547 Squadron aircraft, these are the serial numbers and aircraft ID letters that I've been able to gather from my research cross referencing my grandfather Bill's logbooks and the Squadron ORBs. Although the subject aircraft on this thread is a GRVI I've included the ones for the GRV versions he flew in 1944 until those were replaced in case anyone is building one of those in the future. There are a whole bunch of GRVs dating from 20/3/44 (his first Op with 547) but unfortunately I don't have serial numbers for those as I don't have all the logbook pages. The ones I have listed here start at 6/7/44.  

 

As for Leigh lights, some but not all of the aircraft were equipped with Leigh Lights in the early part of Bill's service with 547 and fortunately the ORB distinguishes these from the non LL equipped ones so I've marked them as LL where they did have one fitted. The fitment of Leigh Lights seems to have been completed during September 1944, coincidentally when the the GRVs were finally phased out. All of his GRVI missions were in Leigh Light equipped versions as far as I can tell and the number of night Ops seems to have ramped up significantly by then indicating that 547 was largely a night ops unit from then on.

 

In the GRVI column you'll notice a duplicate for 2V-H with different serial numbers, The original "H" EW299 was lost with its crew off the coast of Norway not long after Bill last flew in it. 

 

GRV 

2V-Q BZ821     LL      

2V-G BZ979     LL 

2V-C  BZ879     

2V-O BZ794     

 

 

 

GRVI (all Leigh Light)

2V-E  EW307     

2V-F  EW296

2V-N EV995   

2V-P  EW296

2V-H  EW299  (Flew in this aircraft 15/10/44, it was subsequently lost on 28/10/44)  

2V-Q  EV933

2V-V  KG860

2V-D  KG898

2V-L  EW316

2V-F  EW296

2V-C  KG917   

2V-H  KG867   (replacement for EW299)

2V-B   KG869   

2V-L  EW316

2V-K  KG917

2V-X  EW294  

 

Over to you modellers!

 

 

 

      

   

 

Thats amazing, thanks Jim. great to confirm the serial for 2V-B and also have the list there for anyone in the future!

[Jim Spackman]

On 10/03/2022 at 12:39, Ravnos said:

Thats amazing, thanks Jim. great to confirm the serial for 2V-B and also have the list there for anyone in the future!

 

Good job you didn't decide to do "2V-H" as you may have ended up making the wrong one!