B-24J Liberator GR Mk VI Coastal Command new project (Historian needed)

[Ravnos]

Hello! First post on the forum after browsing for a wee while, and being extremely envious of all the amazing talent on display.

 

I'm starting a new project soonish with the Eduard Coastal Command GR Mk VI Liberator (kit No 2123) and I'm trying to get all my information and reference material in order.

 

My Grandfather and namesake flew Liberators with RAF Coastal Command Squadron 547 during the war, sadly he died before I was born and I never got the opportunity to meet him but I always loved the stories my mother told me about him. Recently I started getting more into into the history surrounding Coastal Command and discovering more about him and the vital part it played during the war.

As a sort of homage to him I want to build the model as close as I can to the Liberator that he flew as part of Squadron 547, I'm still currently working on gathering reference material and have a sheet of Decals from Xtradecal which includes the correct squadron code ( 2V ) and other markings I'm going to need and I've got a good idea of which paint scheme to use.. where I'm stuck at the moment is figuring out the serial numbers and details of particular aircraft in the squadron.

I'm fairly confident that he flew Liberator 2V H and possibly 2V B. If anyone knows of any resources that would allow me to look up the aircraft associated with 547sq and their serial numbers / letter designations that would be amazing. so far furious googling has not produced anything useful.

I actually found a really good paragraph of info on 2V B in the Riders in the Sky book included with the kit (Page 12) it would be great if anyone knows of a source for the same kind of information on the other aircraft in the squadron.

 

Some pictures from my grandfathers collection along with his own notes. Its not totally clear for these if he took the pictures from his plane or if a squadron mate photographed him and gave him the pictures.

 

I also want to give a big shout out to Dave Coleys Emporium for fantastic service and communication, I ordered before the stock had arrived with them and they immediately emailed me to ask if I was happy to wait a month or so for it to arrive or if I wanted a refund, then on arrival I discovered they had thrown in an excellent set of tweezers for free. I will definitely be buying from them again.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/advanced-search

 

Search string: 547 squadron

Date Range: 1944 to 1945. (Liberator VI began arriving in August 1944)

 

By the looks of things the aircraft are identified by code letter in the "record of events" files, along with full crew details for operational sorties.  The "summary of events" have fewer details but seem to be listing training flights and personnel details.  A quick looks shows no evidence of Serial/Letter tie ups.

 

Read them online through the watermarks or create an archives account and use the current free download offer.

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

Welcome to forum. In case you are not aware you can download the 547 Squadron Operational Record Books (ORB) from digital archive:

Royal Air Force operations record books 1911-1963

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/raf-operations-record-books-1939-1945/

 

ORBs many times list names for whole bomber crew for each mission including aircraft identity (serial or code or both).

 

You need to create an account in the first time. The file links are sent to your email or one can download them from the page during the visit when signed in. Right now I have my max quota of 100 files for 30 days period full so cannot look for a fortnight or so. 547 Sqn seems to have 36 ORB files for years 1944-45 (Liberator years). So you should be able to download all of them today.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Edited March 15, 2021 by Kari Lumppio

[Mark Harmsworth]

As others have said the Operations Books of RAF squadrons are available online from the National Archives. The level of info recorded in the ORBs varied quite a lot by squadron but 547 seems quite useful.

 

I see that 547 was based at Leuchars in Jan 1945. My dad was also there at that time as an air-gunner in 206 sqn Liberators. I've done a Haseqawa Liberator as one of the planes that he flew in - one of these days I should take some decent pics and post it here.

 

One point I found is that some of those Libs had a Leigh Light installed. Like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Light

 

I got the Leigh Light from this Pavla set - Hannants have one in stock:

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/PAVU72040?result-token=UWKzn

 

This is a not very good pic showing the Leigh Light installed:

 

Happy to help further.

Good luck with your project.

Mark

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Ravnos

Welcome to BM! According to ORB, Record of events (AIR-27-2034-14), the same crew, captained by F/O R. D. Methven, that flew 2V-H on 24th February, flew 2V-B four days later. Serial of 2V-B on the photo in your post is somewhat fuzzy, but if you have access to the original, you will probably be able to read it. However, probably more than one aircraft from 547 Sqn. wore "B" letter, so 2V-B on the photo may not have been the same Liberator VI your grandfather had flown on that day. Cheers

Jure

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

There is also this IMO excellent book which may be of interest:

B-24 Liberator in RAF Coastal Command Service with Focus on Aircraft of No. 311 (Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF by Pavel Türk, Miloslav Pajer. JaPo publishing.

https://www.japo.eu/products.php?cat=3

JaPo main site: https://www.japo.eu/news.php

 

Despite the name there is two pages of 547 Sqn operations plus two profiles for the unit's Liberators. The book is besides history also very much a modeller's guide giving details of all the various antennas, weapons and even chapter of RAF Coastal Command Liberator Standards (Appendix 1, faximiles of original documents).

 

JaPo books tend to sell out fast (Luftwaffe ones, anyways) and command tenfold prices or so after that. Their e-shop seems to be down right now, but should be up by 18th March this year.

 

 

Cheers,

Kari

[EwenS]

The book referred to by Kari has your above photo of 2V-B which, coupled with the data in The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth Service, gives the following details.

 

KG869 GR.VI - B-24J-40-CF s/n 44-10374. Delivered from the Modification Centre to Dorval Canada, 1/6/44. Arrived Prestwick, Scotland 15/6/44. To Scottish Aviation Ltd at Prestwick on the same date. To Haverfordwest General Recce Pool on 13/8/44. To 547 Sqn as 2V-B on 23/9/44. It is next noted at 22MU 15/6/46. Struck of Charge 2/6/47. 547 moved from St Eval to Leuchars starting 28/9/44 and disbanded there on 4/6/45.

 

Features noted:- A-6B nose turret. Guns with flash eliminators. Flare chute visible next to ASG-3 radar dome in belly + another on the rear entry door.

 

547 began to receive GR.VI with ASG-3 radar on 22/4/44 April 1944 to replace GR.V but the last of the latter was not given up until Sept 1944. The first GR.VI mission was flown on the 13/5/44 by aircraft R. Other GR.VI on the squadron included EV897/2V-E.

 

Liberator GR.VIII with AN/APS-15 radar and LAB began to arrive in March 1945 to replace the GR.VI with 7 of the latter still on the squadron 20/5/45.

Edited March 14, 2021 by EwenS

[Ravnos]

Wow, thanks guys I wasn't expecting so many replies so quickly!

 

I wasn't aware of the ORB's so thank you for that, I guess it helps when you know the right terminology for what you're looking for, and I'm definitely  going to need to get a copy of the book Kari and Ewan mentioned (I think the book that comes with the Eduard kit might be an abridged edition of it, its the same author anyway).

I'm amazed by the information Jure got from the ORB's, R.D.Methven is my grandfather so it caught me by surprise to see his name pop up in a reply! Everything I had previously come across seemed to be intentionally leaving crew names out of the records. including a record of a Hudson that I know my grandfather crashed in Iceland in 1942 when he was in 269 squadron prior to the formation of 547.

 

Thanks again to everyone who replied, this is a massive help! I'll be sure to post the build progress when I get started but it's likely to be a while as I'm building a couple of smaller kits first to hone my skills a little before tackling this one, really want to do it justice

[dogsbody]

Have you got a magnifying glass? If so, can you make out the serial number circled in red. I copied your photo and blew it up a bit but the number got too fuzzy to see.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Ravnos]

Unfortunately the originals are at my mothers house which is a 4 hour drive from me and under our current Covid-19 restrictions we're not allowed to travel that far. so at the moment I have to work with these pictures of pictures that my mother sent me. I'm hoping I'll be able to go and get a good look at the originals soon but its not likely to be until about May at this rate. Fingers crossed I can get a little more detail out of them when I can see them in person.

 

P.S. I love the quote in your signature, is that from somewhere significant?

[mick b]

Coastal Support and Special Squadrons by John Rawlings states the following under 547:

 

Liberator VI ( May 44 to Jun 45 )

BZ986 2V P, BZ995 2V N, EV897 2V E, EV933, EV996 2V U, EW296 2V F 

 

Unfortunately no mention of B or H unless EV933 applies to one of them?

 

Mike

[Ravnos]

Thanks Mike! I'm pretty sure going off the pictures that 2V-B is K**** No clue what H was. Now that I've started trawling through the ORB's I've been finding records of other aircraft in the squadron that he flew (H seems to be the most common one he flew but B and S have popped up a few times so far) so I'll keep an eye out for any of the ones you mentioned there!

[Ravnos]

9 hours ago, Mark Harmsworth said:

As others have said the Operations Books of RAF squadrons are available online from the National Archives. The level of info recorded in the ORBs varied quite a lot by squadron but 547 seems quite useful.

 

I see that 547 was based at Leuchars in Jan 1945. My dad was also there at that time as an air-gunner in 206 sqn Liberators. I've done a Haseqawa Liberator as one of the planes that he flew in - one of these days I should take some decent pics and post it here.

 

One point I found is that some of those Libs had a Leigh Light installed. Like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Light

 

I got the Leigh Light from this Pavla set - Hannants have one in stock:

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/PAVU72040?result-token=UWKzn

 

This is a not very good pic showing the Leigh Light installed:

 

Happy to help further.

Good luck with your project.

Mark

 

Your's looks great! I'd love to see more pictures of it if you get round to posting them Its crazy to think that your dad and my grandfather were at Leuchars at the same time, Small world.

[Mark Harmsworth]

Yes it is. My dad was only 19 when he joined an experienced crew at Leuchars as a replacement following a prolonged attack by several Bf110s - but that's a story for another time.

 

You may have already found these but I thought they may give some background info - including the two squadrons working together:

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?1339-206-and-547-Squadron

 

and this one on 547 squadron:

https://merlinsandmore.wordpress.com/r-a-f-coastal-command-squadron-547/

 

And finally a little fact - the first operational Liberator flight in 206 squadron was by Sqn Leader J.J.K. Fleetwood. After the war he had a son, Michael, who developed an interest in playing drums and who formed a band which became moderately successful.

 

This thread has inspired me to get my act together and take some proper pictures of my build - so thanks for that.

Mark

[Ravnos]

I had come across the Merlins and More blog but the thread about operation Chilli is a new one so thanks for the extra reading material Love the story about Mick Fleetwood as well, I had no idea.

 

Cant wait to see the pictures of your build, gives me something to aim for! was yours a coastal command kit or did you modify one of the USAF hasegawa kits?

[iainpeden]

On 3/14/2021 at 4:07 PM, Ravnos said:

 

 

Everything I had previously come across seemed to be intentionally leaving crew names out of the records. including a record of a Hudson that I know my grandfather crashed in Iceland in 1942 when he was in 269 squadron prior to the formation of 547.

 

That sparked my interest: have you used this site?

 

https://stridsminjar.is/en/a-list-of-crash-sites-by-year/incidents-in-1942/350-hudson-sudhurfjoerutangi-hornafjoerdhur-march-10-1942

[Mark Harmsworth]

1 hour ago, Ravnos said:

Cant wait to see the pictures of your build, gives me something to aim for! was yours a coastal command kit or did you modify one of the USAF hasegawa kits?

It was their Coastal Command version of the B-24J:

 

I've had another look at the records for 547 sqn and I believe that Leigh Lights were fitted.

 

See page 4 of the 'Summary of Events' for Jan 1945 which lists the types of tests being carried out. These included 'Radar and Leigh Light Fixed Target' and 'Radar and Leigh Light Moving Target':

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8414929

 

You might want to get that Pavla set I mentioned.

Mark

[Ravnos]

28 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

That sparked my interest: have you used this site?

 

https://stridsminjar.is/en/a-list-of-crash-sites-by-year/incidents-in-1942/350-hudson-sudhurfjoerutangi-hornafjoerdhur-march-10-1942

 

Yes thats the site I was talking about. the crash in question was This one. I managed to match the aircraft and location to the pictures we have. I am planning on doing a Hudson build as well, might do that one first as practice seeing as the kit is a lot cheaper than the Libby!

 

[Ravnos]

44 minutes ago, Mark Harmsworth said:

It was their Coastal Command version of the B-24J:

 

I've had another look at the records for 547 sqn and I believe that Leigh Lights were fitted.

 

See page 4 of the 'Summary of Events' for Jan 1945 which lists the types of tests being carried out. These included 'Radar and Leigh Light Fixed Target' and 'Radar and Leigh Light Moving Target':

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8414929

 

You might want to get that Pavla set I mentioned.

Mark

 

Thanks Mark,

 

I nearly bought one of those kits on Ebay before I found the slightly newer Eduard one on a retailers website. Nice info on the leigh light, after I saw your post I rushed back through and checked the manual for my kit again and it actually has a leigh light included. I'm still debating whether or not I want to go down the rabbit hole of extra parts, there's a PE upgrade kit and resin engines/landing gear available from Eduard. this kit is already my first encounter with photo etch the kit includes some for the cockpit so still figuring it out.

 

Edit: I also spent all of last night downloading all 36 ORB's from the archives for 44-45, it might take me a while to go through it all but planning to extract all the info I can on the missions and aircraft he flew. If i find anything interesting I'll report back here.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Ravnos

[Ravnos]

Update! So I managed to convince my mother to drag the pictures out again and have a better look at the serial number and we have a winner! can confirm that the 2V-B in my grandfathers pictures is KG869.

 

And thanks to all your help pointing me in the direction of the ORB's I now know that he did fly that particular aircraft. I would have liked to do 2V-H as it would appear he flew that one a lot more than any other but given that I have a full decal set for 2V-B including the registration number I think I'll go with that one.

 

 

Reading through the ORB's and getting to know his journey through the war (along with suggestions from some people) has inspired me to expand the project and follow his wartime flying through model making starting with the Tiger Moth he trained in and finishing with the Liberator, (given that I probably wont be able to get my hands on another Libby kit like this I don't want to make an mess of it so could do with some practice before I get there!)

The aircraft I know of so far that he flew are the Tiger Moth, Lockheed Hudson, Vickers Wellington and the Liberator, someone also suggested there was probably a multi engine aircraft somewhere during his training but I have no idea what it would have been, so if anyone knows what bomber pilots were trained with in 1940 I'm all ears

 

Thanks again to everyone's input and I can't wait to get started.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Ravnos

[Mark Harmsworth]

Congratulations! I know how you must feel. I was fortunate as 206 sqn serial nos. were noted in the ORBs.

 

I seem to remember that Avro Ansons were used as bomber crew trainers. Do you know what happened to his log book ?

 

Mark

[Ravnos]

20 minutes ago, Mark Harmsworth said:

Congratulations! I know how you must feel. I was fortunate as 206 sqn serial nos. were noted in the ORBs.

 

I seem to remember that Avro Ansons were used as bomber crew trainers. Do you know what happened to his log book ?

 

Mark

 

Unfortunately we don't have the logbook, I've put out some feelers to relatives that might have it but I'm not holding my breath at this point.  Thanks for the tip on the Ansons, what I do know is he did his training at  S.F.T.S Cranfield from May '31 to August '40. I haven't done any research into it yet but hoping I might be able to figure out what trainers they were using at the time.

[Greenshirt]

16 hours ago, Ravnos said:

S.F.T.S Cranfield from May '31 to August '40

I think you meant May ‘41...

 

Quote

RE: No. 14 SFTS 
Author: Chris Charland (Guest) 
Time Stamp:  
04:18:46 Monday, November 25, 2002 
Post: 
Hi Pavel

No. 14 Flying Training School was formed at R.A.F. Station Kinloss, Moray on the 1st of April 1939. It was redesignated No. 14 Service Flying Training School on the 3rd of September 1939. 

The school's initial aircraft types were the Hawker Hart and the Airspeed Oxford. North American Harvard Mk. I's would soon arrive. While located at Kinloss, the school temporarily used Evanton, Ross & Cromarty as an armament training detachment between October and November 1939 and then again in January of 1940. 

Kinloss was selected to become an operational station, which necessitated the move of the school. On the 19th of April 1940, No. 14 S.F.T.S. was relocated to R.A.F. Station Cranfield, Bedfordshire.

In September 1940, the school dropped its single-engine training role after it became a Group II school. No. 14 S.F.T.S. would now focus solely on multi-engine flying training with Airspeed Oxfords. The school's Relief Landing Grounds were: 

Long Newnton , Wiltshire used between November and December 1940.

Sibson, Cambridgeshire used from the 14th of December 1940 to sometime in June 1941

Twinwood Farm, Bedfordshire sometime in June 1941 to 16th of August 1941

'A' Flight was detached to R.A.F. Station West Raynham, Norfolk from the 28th of February 1941 to the 23rd of March 1941.

No. 14 Service Flying Training School moved to R.A.F. Station Lyneham, Wiltshire on the 16th of August 1941. While at Lyneham, the school used the following locations as Relief Landing Grounds:

Long Newman, Wiltshire from the 16th of August 1941 to the 26th of January 1942

Wanborough, Wiltshire from sometime in August 1941 to sometime in January 1942.

No. 14 Service Flying Training School relocated to R.A.F. Station Ossington, Nottinghamshire on the 19th of January 1942. One week later (26th of January 1942) it was redesignated No. 14 (Pilots) Advanced Flying Unit.

Cheers...Chris

 

I got the above from this site.  Emphasis is mine. 
 

in 1/72 scale, the Admiral/AzModel Kit nr 7234 has markings for No 14 SFTS.  I don’t have it, this is a build thread here.

 

Tim

[Ravnos]

26 minutes ago, Greenshirt said:

I think you meant May ‘41...

 

I got the above from this site.  Emphasis is mine. 
 

in 1/72 scale, the Admiral/AzModel Kit nr 7234 has markings for No 14 SFTS.  I don’t have it, this is a build thread here.

 

Tim

 

 

Thanks that's great, saves me a lot of digging, you are of course correct about the date, I misread the caption on his course picture, rather than May31 to August40, what it actually said was 10th of May to 31st of August 1940, Eyes were a little tired after pouring through the ORB's all evening

[Mark Harmsworth]

20 hours ago, Ravnos said:

Unfortunately we don't have the logbook, I've put out some feelers to relatives that might have it but I'm not holding my breath at this point.  Thanks for the tip on the Ansons, what I do know is he did his training at  S.F.T.S Cranfield from May '31 to August '40. I haven't done any research into it yet but hoping I might be able to figure out what trainers they were using at the time.

How about his service record? That's a specific form held by the RAF which, amongst a lot of other stuff, lists training and postings - so that would show all the squadrons and locations with dates. If the family doesnt have it then the nearest relative can apply for it from the RAF. I found that very useful for tracking down details.

 

Mark