Hawker Siddeley 125 from a Dominie

[rob Lyttle]

I'm going to take a shot at this old Vintage Classic, see what I can make of it. 

Issued first in 1968, there's no doubt that the kit is of that era. Raised surface details, some more raised than others, empty cabin, and working control surfaces. 

The Dominie is the military version of the 125 executive jet which started life as a product of the genius that was de Havilland. Superbly successful and long lived, I'm sure there are plenty still flying - apparently the RAF retired them in 2011. Don't know if they replaced them with anything? 

No Harriers, Buccaneers, Jaguars, Tornadoes..... not sure what they've got other than  Typhoons and the Red Arrows. I did see a couple of the VIP transports depart Southampton after the Big Day celebration in Portsmouth a while back. One for the Royals and one for Theresa May etc. Is it still referred to as "the Queen's Flight"? 

Nice looking planes, I guess they took over from these 125s? 

Anyway, I'm trying to make a civil version here. So the main issue to begin with is the requirement for 3 more windows in the starboard fuselage side. I've made some holes in the plastic, but they are a bit clumsy to be honest. 

The kit supplies transparencies as a 6pane strip for the port side and a 3pane strip for the back windows on the starboard side, plus a single pane for the escape hatch position. They are all HEAVILY dimpled on the outside.

Here's the parts in question, and the 6pane strip has been abraided to some considerable extent. 

My plan..... my Strategy..... 😅 is to fit the 3pane piece in my 3 new holes so they help me to make good the openings around them, and then glaze the back 3 openings, probably with pva. 

Something I'm hopeless at is Masking little windows like this so I'm setting myself a serious challenge with this. It could all go very wrong. 

But look, that's not the attitude to take, is it ⁉️ Faint heart never............. ...! (complete as appropriate) 

😎

Edited March 21, 2021 by rob Lyttle
Spelins

[bigbadbadge]

Nice choice Rob , got one in the stash too. Will try and follow along.  Good luck with your conversion,  I am sure it won't go wrong looking at your other work. 

Chris

[rob Lyttle]

Found some info for my own reference - RAF service 125s 

https://www.globalaviationresource.com/v2/2015/03/29/aviation-news-royal-air-force-bae-125-retirement/

[128fiddler]

I see it like this:

 

-First draw the window shape in some CAD or even paint... 

-Use the backing paper from one of those return postal stickers which are to be found plenty in web ordered parcels.

-Rip of the label and apply some masking tape where your windows are to be printed.

-Print them on scale

-Then cut all the plastic away inbetween the windows. Be sure to make the gap on all sides 1 or 2 mms bigger.

-Get some acrylic or see through sheet and measure how thick it is.

-thin down the edges of the window gaps accordingly to the thickness of the "window" sheet.

-Cut a strip from the sheet and glue it on the fuselage.

-blend in the seems of the windows into the fuselage 

-cut out the printed window masks and apply them directly above a straight strip of tape to get them correctly lined up...

 

😁 just a thought, anyway you address the windows, it'll be nice to see it in your collection!

Edited March 11, 2021 by 128fiddler
Typo's

[alhenderson]

32 squadron at Northolt are the VIP squadron, they merged with the Queen's Flight in the 99s, I think. The VIP 125s went a fair bit earlier than the training Dominoes, only got BAe146s and helicopters now.

 

Al

[rob Lyttle]

8 minutes ago, alhenderson said:

32 squadron at Northolt are the VIP squadron,

Just been getting myself up to speed with this. Sounds like the 146s are scheduled to go fairly soon and maybe replaced with Bombardier 5000 type. 

[128fiddler]

Don't they have a couple Bombardiers which are exiled from active duty soon? They flew from RAF Waddington and could be reconfigured? A thing the RAF has great expertise in, no? 😉

[Tomjw]

I'm going to enjoy this. Mind if I tag along?

 

Cheers

 

Tom

[rob Lyttle]

1 hour ago, 128fiddler said:

they have a couple Bombardiers which are exiled from active duty soon?

Looking like they are going to the breakers. I'm reading that tenders are already being sought from dismantlers! Something new in the pipeline perhaps? 

 

6 minutes ago, Tomjw said:

Mind if I tag along?

More than welcome, Tom. Not too sure how it's going to end up 😇. But that's the best way, I reckon. 

Having had a few iffy moments with front windscreen fitting in the past, I decided a different approach would be worth a try. I cut the screen piece in two, right on the front mid line, and then fitted each half into its fuselage side while there is still plenty of access. 

Sure enough, once satisfied with placement, when I aligned the 2 sides together I had a space. So I shimmed each transparency edge with thin styrene strip which fills the gap nicely and gives a nice white central glazing bar on the front. Looking at pictures the middle joint between the front screens looks quite structural and more substantial than just a glazing bar. So I think this solution will look okay in the long run. 

I have a decent bit of ballast in the nose but Airfix offer no advice on amount required and there is a fair bit of plastic in the tailplanes and engines to weigh the back end. Unsure of what is needed to avoid tailsitting, I added a little more in the shape of a 20mm washer fastened to the back of the cockpit bulkhead. 

You can see where I've ground away some of the plastic including the lumpy bars for the escape hatch part. Because the transparencies had to be ground down to remove the dimples, they weren't coming through to the outside surface of the fuselage. Getting some of the plastic away along the window line let the panes come through better. 

And I've started some Masking.... 

I'm not sure about the dome shape above the cockpit. Doesn't really come across like that in the pictures and references. I think the later BAe models lost the feature completely but the early types don't seem to be as pronounced as Airfix suggests. 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

Hi!  I'd like to do the same conversion.  

 

Let's just start with the fuselage.

 

Are you doing an HS.125 Series 1 or a Series 3?  I ask, because almost all the Series 1 and 3 aircraft  had 5 windows on each side (the rear-most was blanked off).  Only the first nine Series 1 aircraft had six windows either side, and deleted the lower tail strake entirely, so you'll want to chop that off.  Otherwise, take a good look at photos of the real thing, and you'll see a reduced-size tail strake on other 1's and 3's.  

 

If you go with either the Series 1 or 3, you'll need to trim back the ventral equipment lump until you reach the wing root, and substitute a new lower fuselage half to fill in the space, continuing the squared off fairing just aft of the nose gear all the way to the chopped-back portion.  Then you'll want to use scrap plastic and putty to build up the resulting "rump" fairing.  It's a lot of work!  This ventral equipment bay existed on most of the Dominie fleet (the only Series 2 built), except for the sole example used for RAE testing, which resembled a Series 3.  

 

I like your approach with the windows, by the way, and recommend that you purchase a second kit, from which you can steal top-side "skin"  for the lower fuselage (to get the circular-section pressure cabin right), and use its cabin windows.  Sand the windows until the indentations go away, then polish them.  Thin the inner cabin "skin" until the windows stand slightly "proud" of the outer skin, and mask them.  You'll want to do that in order to maintain their shape.  The escape hatch is really wonky, and I see you've corrected it to ensure it lines up with windows on either side.  You can be fancy and add skin doubler plates above and below the hatch.

 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

1 hour ago, rob Lyttle said:

Looking like they are going to the breakers. I'm reading that tenders are already being sought from dismantlers! Something new in the pipeline perhaps? 

 

More than welcome, Tom. Not too sure how it's going to end up 😇. But that's the best way, I reckon. 

Having had a few iffy moments with front windscreen fitting in the past, I decided a different approach would be worth a try. I cut the screen piece in two, right on the front mid line, and then fitted each half into its fuselage side while there is still plenty of access. 

Sure enough, once satisfied with placement, when I aligned the 2 sides together I had a space. So I shimmed each transparency edge with thin styrene strip which fills the gap nicely and gives a nice white central glazing bar on the front. Looking at pictures the middle joint between the front screens looks quite structural and more substantial than just a glazing bar. So I think this solution will look okay in the long run. 

I have a decent bit of ballast in the nose but Airfix offer no advice on amount required and there is a fair bit of plastic in the tailplanes and engines to weigh the back end. Unsure of what is needed to avoid tailsitting, I added a little more in the shape of a 20mm washer fastened to the back of the cockpit bulkhead. 

You can see where I've ground away some of the plastic including the lumpy bars for the escape hatch part. Because the transparencies had to be ground down to remove the dimples, they weren't coming through to the outside surface of the fuselage. Getting some of the plastic away along the window line let the panes come through better. 

And I've started some Masking.... 

I'm not sure about the dome shape above the cockpit. Doesn't really come across like that in the pictures and references. I think the later BAe models lost the feature completely but the early types don't seem to be as pronounced as Airfix suggests. 

The cockpit dome shape is correct, and was used to lower cabin noise on the Series 1, 2, 3, and -400.  The -600 dropped it entirely and added a two-foot plug to the fuselage.  Matchbox gives you something to start with for the -600 and -700.  The -800 is altogether a different beast.

[TheyJammedKenny!]

4 hours ago, alhenderson said:

The VIP 125s went a fair bit earlier than the training Dominoes

Some did, others did not.  The last four VIP CC.3s (BAe-125-700Bs) were retired in 2015.  The last of the Dominie T.1s was retired in March, 2011.

[alhenderson]

6 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

Some did, others did not.  The last four VIP CC.3s (BAe-125-700Bs) were retired in 2015.  The last of the Dominie T.1s was retired in March, 2011.

Thanks for that - should've checked the dates, I guess.  Seems like they've been gone forever.  Like most of our air force, really..

 

Al.

[TheyJammedKenny!]

Also, be sure to chop off the pointy-end of the fuselage back to the rudder.  It doesn't exist on any of these aircraft!

[rob Lyttle]

Great info and pointers @TheyJammedKenny!. I'm still weighing up my options for underneath.... I don’t want this to turn into an ordeal. Likewise @128fiddler, sounds like an excellent plan but I fell at the first fence where it said CAD. 🤪

But I'll keep on the case and see what I get. 

When it comes to plastic bashing and hacking, I'm more interested in things like deployed flaps, and that is the one moving surface type that isn't supplied separately. I've done it with a BAe Hawk in 1.72 and these look like a very similar design, mounted on pylons and with an extra slat strip. Haven't really looked at the wings yet. I've seen that the fences may need moving out a bit? 

Anyway that's getting way ahead of the situation as it stands. 

You'll have gathered that there isn't an interior being built. When it won't be seen, my enthusiasm wanes very quickly with stuff like that.... 😎

[TheyJammedKenny!]

Since you mentioned wings and all....

 

Flaps are only deployed when severe gusts are expected while the plane is anchored--I think at 40 degrees.  On the Series 1, 2, and 3 aircraft, this also includes extending a portion of the fuselage that joins the right/left flaps.  Otherwise, they are retracted before the plane is powered down.  The Dominie kit's flaps are too narrow, so you'll want to scribe new flap separation line about 1/16" inboard of the existing one.  You may consider moving the gear wells forward about 1/8," because they are set too far back, and covering the fuselage wheel wells with closed doors.  Yes, the wing fences should be moved outboard about 10mm, and that air data probe (or whatever it's supposed to be) removed.  The wing undersides also have fences, located about 1/8" inboard of the tips.  Ailerons should be reshaped slightly where they join the inboard flap.

 

On the upper wing there should be a set of speed brakes, together with their hinges.  There also are bulges for the main gear pivot points.  You'll want to study photos of the real thing to get a feel for it.  The inboard flap guides on the civilian aircraft are quite different from Dominies, too.  

 

Landing gear: I recommend that you slice off those unsightly 1968-style toy-like axles on the struts, shorten the struts a tad, and replace with oleos, torque links (forward facing), and a new axle.  Keep in mind that this is a very low-slung aircraft, and if you build it SOB, it sits way too high.  The mains actually are raked forward slightly, which you can achieve with careful cuts and addition of scrap plastic to ensure structural integrity.

 

[rob Lyttle]

I've clocked what you've done there about cutting the wings off the centre piece @TheyJammedKenny!. Followed suit on that and stuck the middle piece on the fuselage, which is now joined up. A bit of work done on the wing panels,

One fence transplant complete, and on the left is the other fence waiting for glue. 2 strips of masking tape as a guide and to keep things clean. 

Wheel Wells are filled and a new flap line scratched in 

New openings can be cut in a forward position and if I make closed doors over the main wells under the fuselage, I'll be getting there. 

 

I've gone back to the rearmost windows and blanked them 

The PVA one was punched in and my styrene template on a stick is now glued in. The port side with the proper windows fitted has just had a smear of filler. 

I'm not going to hack into the under side of this one. I'll save that process for another build. Obvs airfix should have produced the standard shape and supplied an addon piece, but there you go 😶 It's not the kind of work I want to be doing right now.... This one's a recreational build 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

Looks great!  What you could do is "cheat" a little bit and call this an HS-125-400, which had an enlarged, but differently shaped underbelly fairing about 2' shorter than on the Dominie.  The -400 differs from the earlier series jets also in having a narrower passenger entry door, which was hinged at the bottom to form pax air-stairs.  The leading edge of the door is the same as on the earlier jets, but it's taller and narrower.  You have options for how to represent that.  The narrower door will assist you optically by showing that the fairing is shorter. 

 

I admit I know less about the -400, but it was a heavy aircraft, heavy also on the controls, and struggled to reach much above 37,000--nay 35,000 feet.  I understand that H-S intentionally made it more work to move around in the sky, because they wanted to more closely approximate the feel and handling of a larger airliner, and prevent pilots from hot-rodding, which to me makes little sense. 

[rob Lyttle]

Mmmmmmmm...... 😎

I love all that! 

I'm actually trying to get a good reference for the airbrakes /spoilers and hinges etc. I have moved the flap line forward on the top of the wing. 

..... and I was hoping to etch in some definition for the spoilers. Can't quite get the perfect image but I'm getting the idea. 

There's some nice walkarounds here on the BM section,, even the DH 3rd airframe. 

The trouble is, the more you look the more you see!! 

Wing underpanel is getting a repositioned uc opening, and the new leg position is drilled through the top panel to match. 

Original flap line underneath was deep and engraved, so I filled it with stretched sprue, honed it down level and scratched a new one so that it goes through the pylons when they are fitted in those little slots. 

Excellent idea about the 400 series... 😇

[bentwaters81tfw]

Don't forget our Walkarounds. Jets page 6. 3 entries under Hawker Siddley. Stock H.S. 125, 32 Sqn and Dominie.

[rob Lyttle]

18 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Don't forget our Walkarounds.

Yep I've been on them this evening - that's where I got that first image above. Excellent resource for us, and pics can be pasted into build threads without worries of copyright. Many happy hours spent trawling through the BM walkarounds 👍

[rob Lyttle]

2 wings are assembled complete with ailerons. The "moving" aspect is removed and they make a better fit into position. The flaps are left retracted, although I was tempted..... 😇May be next time. 

 

I put a bit of deflection on the ailerons as some compensation for lack of flapage. Better take a look at the tailplanes next 👍

[rob Lyttle]

A detail has come to light while perusing photos etc and assembling the tailplanes. It concerns the tips and the balance tabs on the elevators, and also the ailerons. 

What I've done is chop the tips of the balance tabs and glued them to the fixed tips. 

Needs to be refined a little but this seems to be the case for the airframes I'm seeing. Navigation lights fitted in the fixed tips. 

Also taken a shot at changing the shape of the passenger door with a shaped piece of sticky foil to define the door. 

I won't really know how it's going to appear until I've got some primer on. 

And it looks like the wings and tail surfaces should be white along with the fuselage....? 

As opposed to the light grey that is called out for the Dominie scheme. 

There are so many side portraits of planes, nearly always the port side, and very few that show the wing surface. 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

Yes!  Looks good.  Forgot to mention that part about the elevators, and you caught that inaccuracy.  These aircraft are almost always uniform gloss white.  There were some exceptions, but you'd really need to dig hard.  Side views don't really help much.  In-flight photos are much more useful.

[rob Lyttle]

What I can't get a look at is the wheel wells under the fuselage. Are there doors there that are closed except during retraction? 

The door panels on the legs have a lip or shaped end that doesn't seem to tally with anything underneath. 

If there are doors, are they bulged? 

Any similarly with the HP Jetstream arrangements?