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Calling P-47D experts


Bozothenutter
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trying not to get lost in the Tamiya 1/48 kit, but noticed something was off...

The cockpit sidewalls looked 'cramped' compared to several images found online, so stuff didn't line up with other stuff etc.

So after another online search for drawings, it seems that the Tamiya cockpit is about 5.2mm short between the stick and the front seat mounting points.

The image I used was from a razorback, but I'm assuming bulkheads didn't change?

 

this is the image I used, I think it is from a Japanese publication.

Image-30-jpg-b2b1988c5de37af82d5564b357c

 

Then I tried matching the fuselage to the drawing in the Aerodetail book.....and the rear third of the drawing seems much higher?

dazed and confused in the Netherlands.....

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2 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

trying not to get lost in the Tamiya 1/48 kit, but noticed something was off...

The cockpit sidewalls looked 'cramped' compared to several images found online, so stuff didn't line up with other stuff etc.

So after another online search for drawings, it seems that the Tamiya cockpit is about 5.2mm short between the stick and the front seat mounting points.

The image I used was from a razorback, but I'm assuming bulkheads didn't change?

 

this is the image I used, I think it is from a Japanese publication.

 

 

Then I tried matching the fuselage to the drawing in the Aerodetail book.....and the rear third of the drawing seems much higher?

dazed and confused in the Netherlands.....

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "cramped" Are you saying laterally or longitudinally?

 

As for being short between the stick and the seat frame - that drawing doesn't look quite right, the gap looks a lot bigger between the control column and the seat than in the real thing.

 

51025826732_f5f106d5f6_o.jpg

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These are pages from the manual for a -25 to -35 Thunderbolt

P-47-Dleft.jpg

P-47-Dright.jpg

 

this was shamelessly cribbed from the 'net

vds48-089.jpg

to me it looks like everything aft of the circuit breaker box should be moved rearwards a bit

 

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2 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

These are pages from the manual for a -25 to -35 Thunderbolt

 

 

 

this was shamelessly cribbed from the 'net

 

to me it looks like everything aft of the circuit breaker box should be moved rearwards a bit

 

 

Okay I see what you are talking about know. The trim unit and the flap and gear selector are maybe a fraction too far forward, but if you are worried about that then there plenty of other things that need fixing on this kit that just aren't worth worrying about unless you are scratch building a cockpit or super worried about accuracy. When it's all closed up you just won't noticed tiny errors like this.

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2 hours ago, Tbolt said:

 

Okay I see what you are talking about know. The trim unit and the flap and gear selector are maybe a fraction too far forward, but if you are worried about that then there plenty of other things that need fixing on this kit that just aren't worth worrying about unless you are scratch building a cockpit or super worried about accuracy. When it's all closed up you just won't noticed tiny errors like this.

Tell me more!

All I'm reading is this is the best ever...

What else could do with improvement, I'm a glutton for punishment 😉

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26 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

Tell me more!

All I'm reading is this is the best ever...

What else could do with improvement, I'm a glutton for punishment 😉

 

Okay, this is about correcting the nose cowl shape and the fuselage width and a few other details - http://soyuyo.main.jp/p47/p47-1a.html

 

Also be careful with the engine on the Tamiya kit as they get things a bit wrong  - if you are building the D Bubbletop kit you need to remove the magneto block on front casing ( part B12 ) and fit a blanking plate.

 

The intake/oil cooler splitter isn't very well shaped, you can either redo it or buy the Vector resin set which also includes nice detailed open cowl flaps as the Tamiya open ones are not in the fully open position. This set also has separate elevators as when parked the P-47D the elevators are locked in the down position. Tamiya still don't want to supply separate elevators in their kits even now.

 

The Tamiya kit is still the best P-47 until the Eduard one comes along.

 

 

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Wow.....I have that guys Sea Fury build bookmarked for future reference!

I might attempt the cowl....but skip the fuselage though.

Engine I had noticed, mine us now getting a Vector early, with some late features (GE magnetos, earlier simple sparkplug wire ring)

Must......resist......corrections..

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20 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

The Vector R-2800 engine.

Mine will look closest to a -59 engine (one piece gear housing with GE magneto's)

Yes sorry I just couldn't remember all the sets they do for the P-47 so weren't sure if you were referring to the engine or airframe. I've only built their -73 in 1/48th ( I also have the -59 in 1/32 ) but normally I just use the Tamiya engine though - as nice as the Vector engine are you can't see much with the cowl closed so maybe you should open her up? 😉 Though Vector don't supply the airflow plates and cowl rings so you would have to scratch them.

 

Don't forget to add the correct prop governor for the prop you are fitting.

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On 3/11/2021 at 4:38 PM, Tbolt said:

 

On 3/11/2021 at 7:26 PM, Tbolt said:

 

Okay, this is about correcting the nose cowl shape and the fuselage width and a few other details - http://soyuyo.main.jp/p47/p47-1a.html

 

Also be careful with the engine on the Tamiya kit as they get things a bit wrong  - if you are building the D Bubbletop kit you need to remove the magneto block on front casing ( part B12 ) and fit a blanking plate.

 

The intake/oil cooler splitter isn't very well shaped, you can either redo it or buy the Vector resin set which also includes nice detailed open cowl flaps as the Tamiya open ones are not in the fully open position. This set also has separate elevators as when parked the P-47D the elevators are locked in the down position. Tamiya still don't want to supply separate elevators in their kits even now.

 

The Tamiya kit is still the best P-47 until the Eduard one comes along.

 

 

 

can you help me with the corrections on the site?

this bit:

Cut the main wing girder 1 mm at the center. 

Both or just the rear(larger) one?

 The adhesive surface in front of the cockpit is trimmed to fit the width of the windshield.

What?, I understand removing some of the gluing surface, its the "to fit the width of the windshield" I cant't grasp.

Tbh, if I remove too much the windshield won't fit at all....
The sides of the torso are curved, so squeeze it with your fingers to straighten it.

 

gotta love google translate

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25 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

can you help me with the corrections on the site?

this bit:

Cut the main wing girder 1 mm at the center. 

Both or just the rear(larger) one?

 The adhesive surface in front of the cockpit is trimmed to fit the width of the windshield.

What?, I understand removing some of the gluing surface, its the "to fit the width of the windshield" I cant't grasp.

Tbh, if I remove too much the windshield won't fit at all....
The sides of the torso are curved, so squeeze it with your fingers to straighten it.

 

gotta love google translate

 

I'm not completely sure what he's on about, but I thought you weren't doing the fuselage width correction and this bit is just adjusting things to fit after that correction?

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4 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

 

I'm not completely sure what he's on about, but I thought you weren't doing the fuselage width correction and this bit is just adjusting things to fit after that correction?

🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫

 

How can I resist making things more complicated?

Thus having an excuse to never finish a thing.....

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Just now, Bozothenutter said:

🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫

 

How can I resist making things more complicated?

Thus having an excuse to never finish a thing.....

 

😀

 

I think maybe he's saying that you need to trim the little rear spar tabs that fit against the fuselage otherwise the fuselage sides will not pull in properly where it's been reduced in width. Also the windscreen will have to be trimmed to fit. Here's his P-47N article which might help - http://soyuyo.main.jp/p47n/p47n.html

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1 minute ago, Tbolt said:

 

😀

 

I think maybe he's saying that you need to trim the little rear spar tabs that fit against the fuselage otherwise the fuselage sides will not pull in properly where it's been reduced in width. Also the windscreen will have to be trimmed to fit. Here's his P-47N article which might help - http://soyuyo.main.jp/p47n/p47n.html

I really should learn to look around a bit better.....thanks mate!

 

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4 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

can you help me with the corrections on the site?

this bit:

Cut the main wing girder 1 mm at the center. 

Both or just the rear(larger) one?

 The adhesive surface in front of the cockpit is trimmed to fit the width of the windshield.

What?, I understand removing some of the gluing surface, its the "to fit the width of the windshield" I cant't grasp.

Tbh, if I remove too much the windshield won't fit at all....
The sides of the torso are curved, so squeeze it with your fingers to straighten it.

 

gotta love google translate

 

  The thing to understand about the fuselage correction is that the real P-47 fuselage had sides that were absolutely dead straight, looking down from above, all the way from the front cowling main vertical panel line, just behind the front radius, all the way to the square turbo exhaust doors on the middle rear fuselage sides. 

 

  The whole Tamiya fuselage has an elongated tear drop shape seen from above. It is only obvious from directly above, but it really is a massive error. (The Eduard Hellcat has a similar plan view error, except the rear tapers too early: I think the Hasegawa avoids this, not sure)

 

  The main clue the Tamiya kit is wrong is the cowling sides get wider by nearly 1.5mm to the rear: The cowl should be absolutely parallel, looking down from above. 

 

  The Yoyuso correction on the Wings of Pegasus site corrects the appearance visually, but it is still wrong: He widens the cowling at the front (massively complicated, as this requires rescribing fully all new parallel panel lines): The problem is the Tamiya cowling is already the correct width at the first front cowl panel line, 38 mm side to side if memory serves, so what is needed is narrowing the cowl rear: This means cutting aggressively to narrow the entire massively buttressed fuselage  “cap” that is the big engine support part: Hard to do subtly.

 

  The whole Tamiya fuselage bulk is 2 mm too wide,  from actual dimensions, and squeezing this (while not narrowing the cockpit opening) will be tough given the numerous internal supports. The good thing is the mid- wing position means we don’t have a one piece bottom wing to deal with. Pfffew!

 

  The Tamiya bubbletop canopy is also too tall, and this carries over to the Razorback a little bit, but not too bad. Would be tough to improve, as the effect is very subtle and on a steeply tapering cross-section. I’d ignore it.

 

  The Tamiya kit has some good qualities, but I’d rather wait for a better 1/48 P-47, as fixing these issues requires both heavy work and a lot of subtlety, two things hard to combine.

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Thanks!

More to learn every day!

Will follow this mod for now, but will file the info for future reference.

After seeing pics of a restoration, I'd love to build one as bare frame  lasercutter anyone?

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24 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

@Tbolt, @WrathofAtlantis

What's the story with the seats?

Googling has given me (besides the flat/curved thing):

Seats with armoured headrest.

Seat with 1, 2, or 3 holes in the rear bottom.

Seats without the holed panel

Seat with holes in the side.

What goes where and when?

 

 

How many of those are restored aircraft? Linking some pictures in would help more.

 

There were two types of seat that I am aware of, the earlier more round one, which Tamiya include and a later squarer one. There maybe be slight variations depending what company made the seat.

 

Rounded type -

 

51058466257_116db14880_o.jpg

 

Squarer types - 

 

51058465732_c7d8c53f97_o.jpg

 

 

51058380156_ecdf3788d7_o.jpg

 

 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

 

How many of those are restored aircraft? Linking some pictures in would help more.

 

There were two types of seat that I am aware of, the earlier more round one, which Tamiya include and a later squarer one. There maybe be slight variations depending what company made the seat.

True that, I'm taking the pics from the 'walkaround' and D&S as a base.

Found some restored and recovered ones as well.

 

this I found om ww2aircraft.net

P47-15.jpg

 

a restored seat:

p-47d-thunderbolt-12-of-20.jpg

 

Google

47seat.jpg

a-us-p47-bucket-seat-green-painted-alumi

a-us-p47-bucket-seat-green-painted-alumi

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bozothenutter
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10 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

True that, I'm taking the pics from the 'walkaround' and D&S as a base.

Found some restored and recovered ones as well.

 

this I found om ww2aircraft.net

P47-15.jpg

 

a restored seat:

p-47d-thunderbolt-12-of-20.jpg

 

Google

47seat.jpg

a-us-p47-bucket-seat-green-painted-alumi

a-us-p47-bucket-seat-green-painted-alumi

 

 

 

 

 

 

The top image looks like an early P-51 seat.

 

The seat you want is the one in the last two images.

 

What markings are doing her in?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Tbolt said:

What markings are doing her in?

Just the standard kit decals (was my hope).

Like I said, I'm likely to get lost in kits, which I do enjoy, but would like to finish something  someday....

Screenshot-20210322-070009-Drive.jpg

 

Edited by Bozothenutter
Added pic
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  • 2 weeks later...
13 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

anybody know what the parts circled in red is? (some kind of light?)

And the hose and fitting behind it?

Is it connected to the square, or just a coincidence

Inked-P-47-Dleftcropcircle-LI.jpg

 

Unfortunately the latest IPC I have on the P-47 is from September '43 so it doesn't cover this version. Maybe of someone has bought the later IPC they can help you.

 

But it's not a light, it just looks like a junction box with a wiring loom coming out of the front and a single connector on the bottom.

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On 3/21/2021 at 10:07 PM, Tbolt said:

 

The top image looks like an early P-51 seat.

Adding a little: it is Schick Johnson metal seat for P-51. As the seats mounting on Mustangs changed during the production back and forth it can be called early or late depending on perspective. Again, there is a perspective for 'early' version. :)

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