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RAF low viz roundels


26Decals

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In short, no they were/are different.

 

The anti flash roundels were painted in a variety of shades of Pale Blue and Pale Red, but actual colours didn’t seem to be documented at the time. One answer given and was kind of confirmed by an ex Vulcan engineer was that the colour was Roundel Blue and Red mixed with White 50/50??

 

There are several topics going back over the years on here that give more insight.

 

For the record the modern low viz roundels consist of Pale Roundel Blue BS172 and Pale Roundel Red BS454, both to BS381C.

Edited by scotthldr
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I tried to eyeball the colour decades ago for my Contrail TSR2. ISTR that it was a lot paler than 50/50, more like 90 white/10 blue or red. Somewhere in my stash I have a matchbox containing slivers of metal from the Vulcan scrapped at Newton circa 1974.

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Hi Ray @26Decals

When I quoted BS381C 172 & 454 I was sure I had a paint diagram with these annotated, but after spending much of yesterday afternoon searching I can't locate this. I may have been mis remembering the diagrams in the Valiant AP which gives both the all white scheme and the camo scheme, but both with the normal roundel colours.

454 pale roundel red definitely wasn't in the 1948 edition of BS381C, but I've not been able to establish when it was introduced. If 172 & 454 are in editions of BS381C from the 60's/70's/80's I'd suggest that this is a strong indication that these were the intended colours for the pale antiflash roundels. 

Whilst searching hard drives it is clear from photo's that @scotthldr is correct, there is quite a bit of variation in the colour applied to actual aircraft, and I'd also concur with the assumption that the colours were derived from standard roundel blue and red mixed with white, though I suspect that @Ossington is right in that the mixture contains more than 50% white (and I'd say that the variation in colour is most likely due to mixing ratios.)

Operation Grapple Valiants for example have noticeably lighter roundels than some Vulcans and Victors.

Kit and aftermarket decals also show quite a variation in shades and sometimes hue (some having a slight grey/green tinge to the blue which I don't see in photographs)

Both the Airfix Valiant and Victor antiflash decals are a quite close match for Xtracolor's BS172 & 454 paints, the Valiant being slightly lighter/less saturated and the Victor being slightly darker/more saturated, especially the blue in both cases.

As there's variation between airframes, but the colours on a particular airframe appear to be the same, I'd suggest that providing there's enough roundels/serials/stencils to complete one airframe on the decal sheet (ie you're not leaving the modeller to mix & match with kit decals) then inks close to BS172 & 454 should be good.

I'd also guess that providing different shades of roundel/serial/stencils wouldn't be economical, so if you're providing multiple options then you'd have to go with a best fit/average shade. 

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Ok so I think now I should wait for the kit to be released to see what the Airfix interpretation of the colours are and judge modellers reaction to them.

I would rather be safe than sorry as I want the colours to be as near to perfect as they can be :)

Thanks for all of your input and if in the mean time someone comes up with the definitive answer then that would be great.

Cheers

Ray

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1 hour ago, scotthldr said:

Both BS172 and 454 , were added to BS381c in the 80’s, so you can theoretically rule both of them out.

 

That would tally with the introduction of the pale tactical roundels (phantom, lightning, sea harrier) circa 1982

2 hours ago, tweeky said:

Could the Cosford TSR 2 be of any use here ?

Possibly, but is it original paint? the valiant and the IWM TSR2 have definitely been repainted.

1 hour ago, scotthldr said:

I’ve seen mention of BS111 Pale Blue which is from the correct period.

That could possibly be the paler blue, BS112 Arctic blue doesn't look too far off for a darker version, with possibly BS447 Salmon Pink  for the pale red if standard paints were used, and not a mix of white with roundel red/blue.

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TSR 2 markings have RAF vocabulary of stores ref numbers Pale Red 33B/220-2442 and Pale Blue 33B/220-2443 if anyone can interpret those against a colour standard. Ref MAM Vol5 Iss 4 April 2006 Paul Lucas - The lost tomorrows of an eagle.

(Edit:- this appears to have originated inthe specs for overall antiflash scheme for medium bobers and LR PR aircraft included in AMO A.239 dated 23 November 1960.)

This implies that if paints were initially a mix of white with standard roundel colours, this had been formalised into specific paints with stores ref numbers by the time TSR2 paint specs were drawn up.

If available from stores then one would assume they're also being used for the V bombers as well.

17 minutes ago, 26Decals said:

Would the colours on restored Vulcan XM603 be close?

They look pretty close to the colours on the Airfix Victor sheet. XM603 has been repainted fairly recently IIRC (last few years) have you tried contacting them? If you get hold of the right person they might be able to give you the correct spec? https://www.avroheritagemuseum.co.uk/  , [email protected]

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1 hour ago, Dave Swindell said:

They look pretty close to the colours on the Airfix Victor sheet. XM603 has been repainted fairly recently IIRC (last few years) have you tried contacting them? If you get hold of the right person they might be able to give you the correct spec? https://www.avroheritagemuseum.co.uk/  , [email protected]

Now why didn't I think of that ;)

I have now sent them a message.

Cheers

Ray

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Further to above, the RAF stores ref numbers above should be in AP1086 section 33B from the early 60's. Paul Lucas cross references stores ref numbers to BS381C from a 1966 edition, but not the pale red and blue which have presumably been deleted by then. (MAM V5 I5 May 2006)

The BAC camouflage marking pattern drawing 57900 Sht 1a gives paint codes F.153 R.802 Pale red and F.153 R.803 Pale Blue, the Ad-Hoc TSR2 Aeroguide Special suggests these are ICI paint codes.

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On 3/5/2021 at 4:47 PM, Dave Swindell said:

TSR 2 markings have RAF vocabulary of stores ref numbers Pale Red 33B/220-2442 and Pale Blue 33B/220-2443 if anyone can interpret those against a colour standard. Ref MAM Vol5 Iss 4 April 2006 Paul Lucas - The lost tomorrows of an eagle.

(Edit:- this appears to have originated inthe specs for overall antiflash scheme for medium bobers and LR PR aircraft included in AMO A.239 dated 23 November 1960.)

This implies that if paints were initially a mix of white with standard roundel colours, this had been formalised into specific paints with stores ref numbers by the time TSR2 paint specs were drawn up.

If available from stores then one would assume they're also being used for the V bombers as well.

They look pretty close to the colours on the Airfix Victor sheet. XM603 has been repainted fairly recently IIRC (last few years) have you tried contacting them? If you get hold of the right person they might be able to give you the correct spec? https://www.avroheritagemuseum.co.uk/  , [email protected]

I have now had a reply from the Avro Heritage Museum:

 

Hi Ray,

Sorry for delay in getting back to you but here are the details you require:

BS381c-172 Pale Roundel Blue,  BS381c-454 Pale Roundel Red.

The colours we used to repaint our Vulcan XM603 to BS381c standard.

Hope this helps.

Regards Kevin Whittaker

Director Avro Heritage Museum

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47 minutes ago, 26Decals said:

I have now had a reply from the Avro Heritage Museum:

 

Hi Ray,

Sorry for delay in getting back to you but here are the details you require:

BS381c-172 Pale Roundel Blue,  BS381c-454 Pale Roundel Red.

The colours we used to repaint our Vulcan XM603 to BS381c standard.

Hope this helps.

Regards Kevin Whittaker

Director Avro Heritage Museum

Hmmm, accurate information but doesn't necessarily answer the historical question. 

Have the Avro Heritage Museum the same problem we have here - lack of definitive period colour info?

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