109 rivets/options on airfix build. Help wanted/questions.

[Murewa]

Using the 109 out of the Airfix dogfight doubles I was given for Christmas to build a 109e3 (e4 if I must) for Battle of Britain. The kit is technically an E-7 trop but I know the sprues are mostly common and have spare parts and options.

I'm trying riveting for the very first time too, so a part option question and a riveting question.  Not massively impressed with the kit straight off the bat tbh. Made the mk1 hurricane airfix recently and liked it, this one seems a little more basic. Haven't started assembly, if it fits as well the the hurricane it will probably redeem itself a little. 

1 - gunports

2 - circles of rivets on upper surface

 

 

1 - wing/gun ports --- two options - one with circular detail on leading edge. Is it without circle on  E3/E4 and with on E7? Either way they need a little scribing/filling to make them appear right. Any other tips for the differences I should watch out for or try to change? I know E3-E4 had armoured screen added sometimes too but there are a few different clear canopies and I've got the hollow centre spinner option. I thik the E3 didn't have the armour plate behind the pilot right? 

 

 

2 - Riveting the circular shape on the wing upper surface with a riveting tool ... tips? How? Circle of tape? I've seen some riveting diagrams  and builds without the circle and some with .. huh?!?!? What is this? Do I need it?  What's the best way of adding IF I need to (wanting to do Karl Wolff's white nose 109E3. Case in point, the modeller below (not mine, pic I've saved for reference) has used the circular rivetted pattern or got a kit that has it pre moulded, but their diagram doesn't show it. 🤔

[Crimea River]

1) No answer, sorry

2) I would use a circle template and freehand the rivets with a sewing needle.

[Hepster]

re 1 - the circular detail on the leading edge is a plated over gunport.  The earlier 109s and the E-1 had a machine gun in this location, whilst the E-3 onwards had a 20mm cannon one frame further out, so that the inner gunport had to be covered.

 

[fubar57]

Agree with my esteemed colleague in Post #2 I purchased something similar to this...

 

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Murewa said:

The kit is technically an E-7 trop but I know the sprues are mostly common and have spare parts and options.

as in 1/48th?  AFAIK the E-7 kit has ALL the E1/3/4 parts.  The E-7 may have some extras in the 72nd kit.

4 hours ago, Murewa said:

has used the circular rivetted pattern or got a kit that has it pre moulded

the circles are mould, they don't have fastener detail.   I'll double check when I can get to a kit to do so.  I have both 48th and 72nd if you state which you want checking.

[Murewa]

3 hours ago, Hepster said:

re 1 - the circular detail on the leading edge is a plated over gunport.  The earlier 109s and the E-1 had a machine gun in this location, whilst the E-3 onwards had a 20mm cannon one frame further out, so that the inner gunport had to be covered.

 

Right .. so need the ones with circles for an E3. Gun ports must be the one with the little circle and larger hole and then the  smaller hole without the circle (which is more inboard) is for an E1 if you made it. That must be what the circle is, the cover on the inboard gun port. 👍

2 hours ago, fubar57 said:

Agree with my esteemed colleague in Post #2 I purchased something similar to this...

 

 

Ooooh ... Think I have the Hasegawa tritool set around actually ... not a bad idea! 

 

4 hours ago, Crimea River said:

1) No answer, sorry

2) I would use a circle template and freehand the rivets with a sewing needle.

Yeah, I have a tri tool set, that will probably work better than trying to do a perfect curve with the rivet tool. 

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

as in 1/48th?  AFAIK the E-7 kit has ALL the E1/3/4 parts.  The E-7 may have some extras in the 72nd kit.

the circles are mould, they don't have fastener detail.   I'll double check when I can get to a kit to do so.  I have both 48th and 72nd if you state which you want checking.

Yeah, it's the Airfix 1/48 109E7 that comes in a set with a Mk.Vb Spit as a double. It's all common E model sprues, so it has the E3 hollow spinner and canopy options, which I'm familiar with. Just wasn't sure which of those gun port leading edges I needed. E7 instructions need the one with bigger holes and little circles, guessed the other one was earlier but didn't know when the change happened. Sounds like the other was only for the E1.  Not sure about the circles of rivets though. 

 

 

Cheers guys ... always get helpful answers here! 😀👍

Edited March 3, 2021 by Murewa

[Troy Smith]

35 minutes ago, Murewa said:

It's all common E model sprues, so it has the E3 hollow spinner and canopy options, which I'm familiar with. Just wasn't sure which of those gun port leading edges I needed. E7 instructions need the one with bigger holes and little circles, guessed the other one was earlier but didn't know when the change happened. Sounds like the other was only for the E1.

the E-1 has  machine guns in the wing,  E-3/4/7 have the 20 mm cannon, this has a bulge under the wing for the magazine drum.  

There is a pdf of a set of e-1/4 instructions here

https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/9/7/8/271978-44-instructions.pdf

 

from https://www.scalemates.com/kits/airfix-a05120a-messerschmitt-bf109e-4-e-1--271978  

 

 

35 minutes ago, Murewa said:

  Not sure about the circles of rivets though. 

the kit has circles, with a centre dot.  No fasteners round the edge.

 

The kit has few small issues, do you want details of those?  

[Murewa]

4 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

the E-1 has  machine guns in the wing,  E-3/4/7 have the 20 mm cannon, this has a bulge under the wing for the magazine drum.  

There is a pdf of a set of e-1/4 instructions here

https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/9/7/8/271978-44-instructions.pdf

 

from https://www.scalemates.com/kits/airfix-a05120a-messerschmitt-bf109e-4-e-1--271978  

 

 

the kit has circles, with a centre dot.  No fasteners round the edge.

 

The kit has few small issues, do you want details of those?  

Awesome that pdf is really helpful, thanks! 

Would be good to know issues, some I might be able to slightly remedy ... if not, at least I'd know. 

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Murewa said:

Would be good to know issues, some I might be able to slightly remedy ... if not, at least I'd know. 

 

Prop blades are too thin.  Hub detail is sparse.  a 'free' replacement available if you have an Eduard bf110F or G, as these have the the prop from the earlier C/D/E kit as unused parts, which are the same.

The square canopy is modelled on the bf109E at Hendon, but that is a G centre section, with heavier framing. 

The gear legs sit a bit high, but by cutting the leg holes out, and mounting those on plastic card, the sit lower in the wing.  This was posted by Lynn Ritger, I'd need to dig out the details.

Nothing really awful, decent kit overall.

3 hours ago, Murewa said:

so it has the E3 hollow spinner and canopy options, which I'm familiar with. Just wasn't sure which of those gun port leading edges I needed. E7 instructions need the one with bigger holes and little circles, guessed the other one was earlier but didn't know when the change happened. Sounds like the other was only for the E1. 

I will stress this, apart from the mg vs  cannon, there are not clear cut distinctions between the detail of the E1/3/4/7,  features blur and were retrofitted, by this I mean things like the canopies and spinners, and armour plate.

 

If you want accuracy, pick a subject with decent photos to get these details. 

 

If you want a specific subject without clear images, try asking here for specfics,  "detail of bf 109 1234 of 3/JG 77 in June 1940'  may well get you chapter and verse from someone,  bear in mind over the last 15 years an incredible amount of images have become available via ebay Germany where folks have been selling off the contents of great uncle Helmut's photo albums,  which need to be illustrated, the real photos are expensive, but the important data is available, and is collated by the researchers....  

It's a bit of a rabbit hole....  but it's possible to find an amazing amount of detail in some cases.

 

HTH

[Murewa]

4 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

Prop blades are too thin.  Hub detail is sparse.  a 'free' replacement available if you have an Eduard bf110F or G, as these have the the prop from the earlier C/D/E kit as unused parts, which are the same.

The square canopy is modelled on the bf109E at Hendon, but that is a G centre section, with heavier framing. 

The gear legs sit a bit high, but by cutting the leg holes out, and mounting those on plastic card, the sit lower in the wing.  This was posted by Lynn Ritger, I'd need to dig out the details.

Nothing really awful, decent kit overall.

I will stress this, apart from the mg vs  cannon, there are not clear cut distinctions between the detail of the E1/3/4/7,  features blur and were retrofitted, by this I mean things like the canopies and spinners, and armour plate.

 

If you want accuracy, pick a subject with decent photos to get these details. 

 

If you want a specific subject without clear images, try asking here for specfics,  "detail of bf 109 1234 of 3/JG 77 in June 1940'  may well get you chapter and verse from someone,  bear in mind over the last 15 years an incredible amount of images have become available via ebay Germany where folks have been selling off the contents of great uncle Helmut's photo albums,  which need to be illustrated, the real photos are expensive, but the important data is available, and is collated by the researchers....  

It's a bit of a rabbit hole....  but it's possible to find an amazing amount of detail in some cases.

 

HTH

Awesome, thanks! Cheers dude! 

Props shouldn't matter as I'm building in fight with prop-blur, same with gear. Wheels up is the best thing about Airfix for me, so much less faff with filling and sanding wheel covers to fit. Interesting about the canopy. There's a good photo of Wolff's 109 after it crashed and a lot of other modellers to imitate/be inspired by. I did notice it had definitely had the armour plate fitted in the photo, which I didn't expect in an E3 and had seen missing in many, many representations. Part of the attraction of Wolf's was the spinner was pure white. Still not sure how to represent the 'blurred' effect of a spinner with the different sections of colour when spinning. Something I'll have to tackle eventually. 

[Aidrian]

On 3/4/2021 at 12:00 AM, Murewa said:

Still not sure how to represent the 'blurred' effect of a spinner with the different sections of colour when spinning.

 Are you trying to catch the effect of what you would have seen with the Mk.I eyeball or what you would usually see in a photo? Camera shutters often only catch part of the rotation, so the segments woudl be slightly visble but blurred at the edges, as would the propeller blades. The old eyeballs see things differently and you end up thinking you see much the same thing that you would if you mixed the colours together (I don't know if you ever got to sit though the old school  demonstration with a fast rotating multi-coloured disc which was intended to show how white light was made up of different colours, but the principle is the same.) 

 

On the other hand the camera effect needs you to blend the different colours much more tightly at the pointy end than at the rear face, and the blades should be less blurry nearer the centre than they are at the outer edge of the disc.     

Edited March 6, 2021 by Aidrian