***Finished***North African Desert Mustang

[PhantomBigStu]

Unusual scheme, but of a back story, am an ex diecast collector and back in 2007 Corgi had this in the catalogue, which I was very keen to see released at the time only for it to be cancelled. Had forgotten all about it till now, having purchased the italeri kit recently  and didn't fancy either option in the box.  

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by PhantomBigStu

[Col.]

That's a scheme I've not previously seen Stu  

[PhantomBigStu]

1 hour ago, Col. said:

That's a scheme I've not previously seen Stu  

Indeed, what caught my eye is it’s uniqueness, some debate as to whether it was in full raf desert colours or the RAF just applied some middle stone over the olive drab,  I’m going with the later for extra uniqueness. Hopefully should be a quick build, in need of some after the last few weeks stuck with my Shackleton and last nights f-15 accident 

[stevehnz]

This aircraft featured in the Model Alliance North African sheet before they disappeared. I've got the sheet & an Academy kit to build it, I recall @tonyot building it some years ago. There are some photos of this online, some of which surfaced in a thread discussing it which I think I may have started. One of the photos might have shown yellow stripes on the wings as the US P-51s wore in that theatre, it was enough to convince me at the time. I'll try & find some links if I can. As it was borrowed from the USAAF in theatre, Middle Stone over O/D is considered likely for it.

@PhantomBigStu the  following is the thread mentioned above.

 

Steve.

[PeterB]

Hi Stu and Sterve,

 

Very interesting. I knew that the RAF did have a batch of the cannon armed Alison engined P-51 which they called the Mustang IA and that the USAAF did use the same version in the Desert and Italy, but not that the RAF used them in that theatre, though borrowed US ones would seem to explain it!  I have a Mustang I in grey/green used for recce flights in the ETO but this will be a very unusual version.

 

Pete

[Graham Boak]

The use was in Italy rather than North Africa.

[PhantomBigStu]

So it’s not eligible? 

[tonyot]

On 3/3/2021 at 10:15 AM, stevehnz said:

This aircraft featured in the Model Alliance North African sheet before they disappeared. I've got the sheet & an Academy kit to build it, I recall @tonyot building it some years ago. There are some photos of this online, some of which surfaced in a thread discussing it which I think I may have started. One of the photos might have shown yellow stripes on the wings as the US P-51s wore in that theatre, it was enough to convince me at the time. I'll try & find some links if I can. As it was borrowed from the USAAF in theatre, Middle Stone over O/D is considered likely for it.

@PhantomBigStu the  following is the thread mentioned above.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php%3F/topic/65560-225-squadron-mustang-1a-wu-b-colours/&ved=2ahUKEwj7qv-5_ZPvAhXg7HMBHXUIBxoQFjABegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw0DbKPOTWrmF98W20YS_DMT&cshid=1614771013463

 

Steve.

I have seen a photo of a desert airfield,.. possibly Tunisia,... taken from above and it showed WU coded, desert schemed early Mustangs on the ground alongside Spitfire`s,...... but I don`t recall seeing any others to be fair.  

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by tonyot

[PeterB]

Hi Stu,

 

I for one would quite like to see it built but there does seem to be a certain amount of doubt, so I guess it is time for the moderators to get their thinking caps on - after all it's what we (don't) pay them for😁. Osprey Air Vanguard say that the 55 P-51's aka Mustang IA held back by the USAAF were retrofitted with K.24 cameras and most if not all ended up in Tunisia, some with the 154th Observation Squadron which carried out the first US Mustang combat mission of the war. It also says that 225 Squadron RAF serving in North Africa often borrowed some of their planes as their Spits did not have enough range for certain missions. It makes no mention of any repainting however so I guess it depends on how long they were "borrowed" for. Presumably both units moved to Italy fairly soon afterwards as Graham suggests.

 

The F6A had I believe a K.24 camera, a US copy of the RAF's F.24 fitted in both of the small windows behind the cockpit (which may have been bulged as in @tonyot's pic) as did the RAF Mustang I but it is unclear whether or not they retained the cannon though I have seen a pic of at least 1 USAAF version in OD/Medium Gray with both camera and cannon, and the pic of Tony's above seems to show that as well. The Mustang 1 certainly had cameras and guns though I guess the cannon installation would be a bit heavier, but as they were flying low I would suspect they did retain them, unlike the high flying PR Spits, but like some of those that flew at low level, the PR VII and XIII, and of course the pink FR IX prior to D-Day and the various later FR's such as the FR XIV. Is the Italeri kit provided with cameras/bulged windows?

 

Hope that helps.

 

Pete

Edited March 3, 2021 by PeterB

[tonyot]

52 minutes ago, PeterB said:

Hi Stu,

 

I for one would quite like to see it built but there does seem to be a certain amount of doubt, so I guess it is time for the moderators to get their thinking caps on - after all it's what we (don't) pay them for😁. Osprey Air Vanguard say that the 55 P-51's aka Mustang IA held back by the USAAF were retrofitted with K.24 cameras and most if not all ended up in Tunisia, some with the 154th Observation Squadron which carried out the first US Mustang combat mission of the war. It also says that 225 Squadron RAF serving in North Africa often borrowed some of their planes as their Spits did not have enough range for certain missions. It makes no mention of any repainting however so I guess it depends on how long they were "borrowed" for. Presumably both units moved to Italy fairly soon afterwards as Graham suggests.

 

The F6A had I believe a K.24 camera, a US copy of the RAF's F.24 fitted in both of the small windows behind the cockpit (which may have been bulged as in @tonyot's pic) as did the RAF Mustang I but it is unclear whether or not they retained the cannon though I have seen a pic of at least 1 USAAF version in OD/Medium Gray with both camera and cannon, and the pic of Tony's above seems to show that as well. The Mustang 1 certainly had cameras and guns though I guess the cannon installation would be a bit heavier, but as they were flying low I would suspect they did retain them, unlike the high flying PR Spits, but like some of those that flew at low level, the PR VII and XIII, and of course the pink FR IX prior to D-Day and the various later FR's such as the FR XIV. Is the Italeri kit provided with cameras/bulged windows?

 

Hope that helps.

 

Pete

The one in the pic I posted has all 4 cannons fitted,.... as did the ones in the other photo I mentioned,..... and surely the camera fit behind the pilot was for one oblique camera,....pointing to one side or the other but usually to the left. 

[PeterB]

Hi Tony - you are of course right about the camera - I  mis-read the article as it said cameras but was perhaps refering to the planes in plural. Looking at it again the camera was mounted on the Port side only and just that window was bulged, with a circle cut out for the camera to "look" through without distortion.

 

Pete

Edited March 3, 2021 by PeterB

[PhantomBigStu]

@Col. or any other mods watching am I good with this or will I need to buy something else? (He says having selected something on king kit) 

Edited March 4, 2021 by PhantomBigStu

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

1 hour ago, PhantomBigStu said:

@Col. or any other mods watching am I good with this or will I need to buy something else? (He says having selected something on king kit) 

Hey Stu did some digging and found this. Does it help ? 
 

Maybe Reini78  could help ? There is slso a link about half way down the page to ARC Forums about the plane ? 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[PhantomBigStu]

Made a decision to plow ahead, if its not eligible the kit that will be on its way from Kingkit will take precedent as that's eligibility is without question given the chosen scheme.  Complicated the build as I've decided to fix the kits wing leading edge issue, also my attempt to make the pilot look like he's wearing shorts isn't great . 

 

Edit: and oh dear a good browse of kingkit has now got me hovering over a 2nd definite entry 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by PhantomBigStu

[Col.]

Excuse the delay Stu, life is getting in my way, crack on with this one if you wish  In the absence of a definite answer let's say there's a chance it could have served in Tunisia and if it didn't there's a chance the pilot was of African parentage or something.

[stevehnz]

On 3/4/2021 at 1:19 AM, Graham Boak said:

The use was in Italy rather than North Africa.

Can you expand on this Graham. I've only ever seen mention of this/these ringin Mustangs mentioned in a Nth African setting, but not dates etc which would tend to tie them to a particular area. Maybe someone with access to 225s ORB could straighten this out. To my mind, if 225 came by these machines while in Italy, they'd have tended to have overpainted the OD with some OG or an in theatre equivalent to give them a camo scheme, but not with Middle Stone. Just my take on this.

Steve.

[PeterB]

Hi Steve and Stu,

 

About the only good thing to come out of the Pandemic as far as I am concerned is that the National Archives at Kew are letting you download things like ORB for free, though you have to register and set up an account (also free) - here is the link. There is a limit of 10 items a day!

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

 

Anyway, just for a laugh I have had a very quick look at the period Jan 1943 to June 1943 and 225 definitely had 3 or 4 Mustangs on the books from April 21st onwards but they list them as "Mustang II" and only give the last 3 digits of the serial so I cannot check it against my RAF serials listing. AFAIK the P-51A aka Mustang II did enter RAF service in limited numbers towards the end of 1942 and as far as I can tell the USAAF Mustangs only arrived in North Africa in April 1943 so without knowing exactly when they started "borrowing" I am unsure what dates to check but maybe you would like to take a look yourselves - if you need any help navigating the site give me a shout. They have been waiving charges for almost a year but I expect that will end before too long so if you want to check out this or anything else, now would be a good time!

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[stevehnz]

Thanks Peter, I'll have a look at it.

Steve.

[PeterB]

Hi Steve,

 

This really is a bit of a can of worms - looking again at the posts in your link, @ColFord says that according to his research and that of a friend, 225 went to North Africa with Hurricanes and later Spits and later had 4 Mustangs, all of which is borne out by the ORB I have looked at. However he also says they had no Mustang II, and yet in April the ORB records 4 such machines, but although the RAF did indeeed receive a batch of Mustang II, the allocated serials being FR890-FR939, Osprey Air Vanguard say they were not delivered until June/July 1943 so what were the "Mustang II" shown on the ORB in April of that year? Incidentally some sources say that they had Mustangs prior to going to Africa but left them behind, whilst others say they did indeed have Mustang II sometime in 1943, and RAFWeb thinks they had Mustang I's up to October 1942 - rather messy!

 

As to FD442, this was one of a batch of Mustang IA actually allocated to the RAF according to Bruce Robertson's "British Military Aircraft Serials" ( FD418-FD 567 but 418-437, 450-464, 466-469 and 510-527 were never delivered), so it seems unlikely it was a borrowed USAAF machine in North Africa, though as with everything to do with this hobby you have to take info from books with a pinch of salt sometimes! Also, given that the serials were allocated well in advance of the aircraft being received, would a handful of "borrowed" machines receive "official" serial numbers and if so how were they allocated I wonder? Finally, there are a couple of colour photos in the D&S book of USAF Allison powered Mustangs in a tan/OD scheme so maybe those of the 154th OS were in that colour when they arrived in Africa - who knows.

 

In conclusion, I think it is quite possible that 225 Squad as former Mustang users did borrow some P-51 aka F6A planes from the 154 OS in April 1943, but chose to record them as "Mustang II" in their ORB, perhaps using the "last 3" of their USAAF serial instead of an "official" RAF serial number, and they may indeed have been a light tan/sand over OD and Gray. I could of course be totally wrong! Given they were based at Korba in Tunisia at the time, the ORB for June talks of missions to Pantelleria and Lampedusa prior to the invasion of Sicily in July, so that could explain the need for planes with a longer range than their Spitfire MkV - after all they would no longer need to carry out recce missions over North Africa after the Axis surrender in May, and might well have been starting  looking at Sicily even before then.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited March 10, 2021 by PeterB

[stevehnz]

Thanks Peter, that sounds like a very good summation of the likely circumstances around these machines, more importantly, from a modellers perspective, it allows some wriggle room.

Steve.

[ColFord]

Sorry about turning up late to the party on this, have been away for a while dealing with 1:1 scale aircraft and with limited internet acess whilst I was away.  Plus for some reason did not get the usual notification that someone had 'pinged' me here on Britmodeller regarding things Allison Mustang.

 

Lets get down to the basics.  No.225 Squadron had operated the Mustang Mk.I in the UK before they were transferred to the MTO.  The transfer was without aircraft, so they left their Mustang Mk.I in the UK and were issued with initially Hawker Hurricanes and then later Spitfire V to use in the Tac/R role in North Africa.

 

Late in the campaign in North Africa as the focus started to move onto the impending invasions of Sicily and Italy, they borrowed for a period of time, four USAAF P-51/F-6A which they used to conduct longer ranged Tac/R and general recce missions that were beyond the range of the Spitfire Vs.  The US 154th Observation Squadron had a mix of P-51 and P-51-10A aircraft (what later was redesignated at F-6A) - that is some aircraft without the US recce camera installation and some with.  Current information being developed by a US researcher who is digging into this in great detail is that the majority of P-51 aircraft received by the 154th were fitted with the US recce camera installation, but a small sub-set of the aircraft they received were not.  The installation the USAAF aircraft were fitted with was one developed by the USAAF in house and had configurations for an oblique camera installed in the quarter rear window pointing out to the port side, enclosed with a 'bulged' perpex window - the window design and mount were considerably more complex in design that the RAF ones; along with a vertical/vertical oblique camera installation in the rear fuselage - camera mounted with lens positioned between the radiator outlet and tail wheel undercarriage bay.  This vertical/vertical oblique rear camera had a control cable that allowed the camera to be moved in flight from a direct overhead vertical position to a vertical oblique looking vertically slightly behind the aircraft.  The aircraft retained their US supplied 4 x 20mm Oldsmobile manufactured Hispano cannon armament.

 

Latest research and examination of the available photos of the Mustangs borrowed by No.225 Squadran RAF, is suggesting that the scheme they were in was not a full repaint into a RAF style desert scheme, but an overpaint of the olive drab upper surfaces with a disruptive camouflage pattern, likely in middle stone, with the prop spinner in red, an UK national markings added.

 

The No.225 Squadron ORBs record Mustang Mk.II, but given their previous experience with the Mk.I in the UK, they probably though tthe cannon armed ones they had borrowed were the Mk.II.  As it was, the timeframe this was all happening the USAAF and RAF were yet to receive the first of their P-51A/Mustang Mk.II, so they were not Mustang Mk.IIs.

 

The last three quoted in the No.225 Sqdn ORBs are the last three of the USAAF serials for the aircraft borrowed.  So 41-37XXX - all the last three serials quoted fall within the serial ranges for the P-51s held back by the USAAF from the RAF Lend Lease order for the NA-91/P-51/Mustang Mk.IA.  As best can be determined, due to short period of the loan to No.225 Sqdn and that they were to be returned to USAAF, no RAF serial allocated.  (Different to the six A-36s that were provided on long term loan to No.1437 Strategic Reconnaissance Flight which were given RAF serials in the HK range.)

 

As to the history of FD442, that is quite well known and documented.  After arrival and reassembly in the UK it was 'pulled' and sent to AFDU for trials.  As such it did not receive the full usual set of RAF service modifications.  There it caught the eye of Squadron Leader JAF Maclachlan DSO DFC** and became the subject of his plans to conduct long range intruder operations against Luftwaffe training and bomber bases in France. S/L Maclachlan had his aircraft finished in a special C&M scheme for these missions, but the aircraft was lost along with Maclachlan on the third of these missions when he was shot down and killed on 18 July 1943.  (First mission aborted due to issues on crossing enemy coast; second conducted in company with Mustang Mk.I flown by F/L Geoffrey Page was successful in shooting down a number of Luftwaffe training aircraft and night bombers on test flights at airfields in France; aircraft shot down and crashed not long after crossing coast on third sortie, again in company with F/L Page.)

Edited March 12, 2021 by ColFord
Typo

[PeterB]

Thanks Colin,

 

That seems to match my own interpretation pretty well, so Stu can go ahead and build his kit as a borrowed one used by 225 with middle stone stripes over the OD and a red spinner, but may need to do a bit more research on the serial and codes, In April 1943 the ORB listed 3 "Mustang II" serials 361,366 and 424  and in May they added 428, so I presume that would be 41-37361 and so on which seems to be confirmed as I have just noticed that whoever was writing up the ORB one day in May put the full US serial down! Unfortunately, as with most fighter squadron ORB they do not list the individual code letter that matched the serials, assuming they carried one -any ideas?

 

One final point - by April their Spit Vb and Vc were mostly carrying out missions labelled "Tac/R" but also did a fair number of  "Shipping Recce" and also something called "Weaver" whatever that was. By comparison the borrowed Mustangs only did "Photo/Recce" so perhaps they did not want to risk going in  low and shooting up anything in case they were damaged?

 

Pete

Edited March 12, 2021 by PeterB

[ColFord]

As we know from the few photos that have surfaced of the P-51s used by No.225 Squadron RAF, they had applied to them at some point in the time they were with the Squadron the squadron code letters WU and at least one had the individual aircraft id letter B.  Given some logic being applied one might hypothesize that operating as a sub-flight within the squadron of four aircraft they may have gone down the simple and expedient path of giving the four Mustangs the individual id letters A, B, C, and D aligned with the serials 361 = A, 366 = B, 424 = C and 428 = D.  Purely hypothetical, but would be a solution hard to dispute without further hard evidence.  The US applied serials in what photos there are of the No.225 Squadron aircraft, are not evident - where they would normally be applied is part of the area covered by the application of the mid-stone/sand.

 

It is very rare to find RAF Squadron ORBs that list both aircraft serials and the individual aircraft id letters.  Also can fall down to who got the duty of writing up the ORB for that month and how much attention they paid to the duty, which was normally a secondary one.  The quality and accuracy of information contained in ORBs can at times be quite variable, especially during times when units were at full capacity conducting operations.  Normally the only way to be able to do serial number to individual code letter tie ups is to find supplementary documentation, such is sometimes included in the Appendices to the ORBs, or through access to pilot's log books of pilots serving with the Squadron at the time as it was usual for the pilots to record the individual aircraft id letter in their log book, sometimes in addition to the serial.

 

The use of the borrowed Mustangs only for "Photo Recce" is probably more of an indication that they were the only aircraft on the Squadron strength at that time specifically equipped to conduct that role.  The normal range of focal lengths of the lenses fitted to both the oblique and vertical cameras fitted to the Mustangs would have, depending on the mission requirement, allowed them to conduct photo recce sorties from 'zero' feet up to around 7-8,000ft maximum.  Also being borrowed aircraft from the USAAF with little likelyhood of getting replacements if any were damaged or lost, they were probably treated with some care in the missions they were allocated and how they were operated.

 

Looking at the No.225 Squadron ORBs, the use of "Weaver" as a sortie description is applied to the No.2 of a pair of aircraft conducting Photo Recce sorties.  Where the No.1 of the pair would be concentrating on navigation and over the target area getting the required photographs, the No.2 would be flying above and to one side of the No.1, covering him and paying more attention to the sky around them looking for potential intercepting enemy aircraft or any other threats,  He would effectively be weaving over and above and around the No.1 to cover him.  In the sortie descriptions where a "Weaver" is called out, the type of photography would require particular attention by the No.1 to flying a straight and level course at a specific altitude, speed and course to get the required photographic coverage, so having a "Weaver" to cover the No.1 would be very important.  Same tactics used by the Mustang Tac/R units in the UK and something that had been established back when they had Tomahawks.

Edited March 13, 2021 by ColFord
Typo

[PeterB]

Thanks Colin,

 

I thought "Weaver" rang a bell.

 

I think this multi-national effort has given Stu more than enough info for his build and confirmed it is definitely eligible, so I will cease intruding in his thread and let him get on!

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited March 13, 2021 by PeterB

[PhantomBigStu]

Cheers for the UN summit. Won’t be returning to it yet though, want to power through my ANZAC hawkers and actually finish my Shackleton this week. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by PhantomBigStu