RAF Camouflage in the CBI: Late Mohawk colours (late 1943/early 44)

[Juanita]

Trying to work out the colours of Mohawks in India (155 Sqn in particular) in later part of their operations.

The early Mohawks were standard Dark green/Dark Earth.

 

However, in late 1943/early 1944, some look like they been repainted and the tone looks more like Ocean Grey and Dark Green.

In particular ‘Joe Soap’ ‘A’, but you can see the sharp demarcation line on ‘B’ in the attached image.

 

Unless they are using some very weird filter, I do not believe it shows Desert Scheme.

 

I can't tell if they still have their yellow wingtips and outer leading edge...and reportedly, after a friendly fire incident in December 1943, they aircraft also had the underside of their cowls painted yellow (the underside of the cowl on Joe Soap is a tone they could easily be yellow)

 

Juanita

 

And Joe Soap can be seen here

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/p-36/fo-t-h-meyer-of-55-sqn/

 

 

[dragonlanceHR]

Is this for the announced Hagedorn/Ticopa book?

[Buz]

Juanita

 

Maybe this might assist, possibly better than trying to explain it:

 

Certainly RAF Spitfires and Hurricanes were in very similar finished

 

Buz

Edited March 1, 2021 by Buz

[rossm]

DTD360 - the document specifying colours and finishes to manufacturers - in Feb 43 gives day fighters for overseas commands except desert areas to be the same as Fighter Command, i.e Dark Green, Ocean Grey and Medium Sea Grey. I think this document was also used by RAF units but how long it would take to get actioned in India I don't know.

[Graham Boak]

There appears to be very little evidence of aircraft operational in SEAC in the Day Fighter Scheme.  As in nil?  There is at least one photo of a Hurricane in an OTU win DFS and full Fighter Command trim, leading edges and tail band.  There are anecdotal accounts from pilots, but the extreme fading suffered in this climate seems to be responsible for a range of resulting shades,  depending presumably on the sources of the colours.  I presume Beachamp's book has been consulted?

[JWM]

Maybe @tonyot can help since he surely did research when constructed models 

J-W

 

 

[Juanita]

Thanks for all your replies.

[Juanita]

8 hours ago, rossm said:

DTD360 - the document specifying colours and finishes to manufacturers - in Feb 43 gives day fighters for overseas commands except desert areas to be the same as Fighter Command, i.e Dark Green, Ocean Grey and Medium Sea Grey. I think this document was also used by RAF units but how long it would take to get actioned in India I don't know.

I have recently come across the larger version of the photo of 'B' and 'F', that includes another 6 of the squadrons aircraft. Its apparent there is a lot of inconsistency in finishes. At that time 'Joe Soap' still has the interim SEA roundel, while 'D' has the final small size SEA dark blue roundel with the light blue centre, while all the rest have the interim roundel. Some aircraft have no rear fuselage bands, 3 have the typical 18" sky band, and two have very narrow bands.

 

From what I can see (its a small and fuzzy photo) the camo demarcation lines on Joe Soap are quite different than on the later photo - between the sharp demarcation lines in the later photo, and the change in camo pattern the aircraft had definitely had a repaint - so fresh paint. Without some weird filter I can't see that being DG/DB....in fact the tonal quality is very much like the UK-based fighter aircraft painted in the ad hock versions of Ocean Grey when the Day Fighter Scheme was first introduced.

 

My impression is that there were quite a lot of RAF aircraft in the CBI in1944 that were finished in Day Fighter Scheme - they were being delivered that way and the Japanese air superiority was rapidly fading.
Its not an area I have studies in detail but I know towards the end of the war there were some Spitfires that had their DFS modified with local colours – but they were not in India, they were further East.

 

PS: Is there an easy way to post photos directly into a post without needing a URL?

[Juanita]

I have been pointed in the direction of Phil Listerman's book on the RAF/SAAF Hawks.

 

Lots of new information - I'm very impressed by his research.

 

Seems that in all probablity the 'A' in the air to air photo is 'Joe Soup' while the well known close up photo is 'Joe Soap II', a different aircraft.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Curtiss_Mohawk/nEO8DQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover

 

[Graham Boak]

Geoff Thomas did much research into this area and was firmly of the opinion that the SEAC instructions  for DG/DE were being followed, and such colour photography as exists confirms this.  As for deliveries in 1944, why should these be in DFS rather than the official Desert scheme for overseas?  Either way they would spend some time in rear depots before being issued to  the front line, and repainting to local colours would be part of this.

 

There remains the likelihood of local repainting as would happen with these Mohawks, but why introduce an "alien" scheme rather than one better suited to the local environment?  Particularly on a unit not exactly at the cutting edge of the air superiority battle, but more "down in  the weeds"?

[2996 Victor]

20 hours ago, Juanita said:

I have been pointed in the direction of Phil Listerman's book on the RAF/SAAF Hawks.

 

Lots of new information - I'm very impressed by his research.

 

Seems that in all probablity the 'A' in the air to air photo is 'Joe Soup' while the well known close up photo is 'Joe Soap II', a different aircraft.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Curtiss_Mohawk/nEO8DQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover

 

Hi Juanita,

I can confirm that Phil Listemann's book is well worth obtaining - I opted for the printed version which took a little longer to arrive as its "print on demand". I think @tonyot mentioned it in his Mohawk threads, which is how I found it. Just send and e-mail to Phil - he's extremely helpful.

Tony also mentioned, as has @Graham Boak above, "Mohawks over Burma" by Gerry Beauchamp. Its a fascinating history of 5 and 155 Squadrons, with lots of excerpts from the pilots' log books and memoires. Great photos and some colour information, including several monochrome profiles. Its out of print but I got a nice copy via AbeBooks - there were quite a few available - that I'm reading at the moment.

As others have mentioned, Mohawk camouflage seems to have been in accordance with SEAC policy, being dark green/dark earth over medium sea grey, rather than the Day Fighter Scheme. Originally, they had a Sky band around the rear fuselage, although this was deleted when the aircraft were repainted. Also, don't forget the yellow ID markings later applied to differentiate the Mohawks from Japanese fighters.

Kind regards,

Mark

[Juanita]

Thank you Mark and Graham

 

I've finally been convinced to ignore my eyes and run with the wisdom 🙂  Just joking: determining colours from black/white photos is never more than guesswork.

Thank you for the insights. SEA markings around is not something I have studied in depth.

 

I had heard good reports about 'Mohawks over Burma', but I'd been reluctant to get a copy because of the cost (with delivery), however you've convinced me and I have a copy shipping now.

 

Thank you for your help.

Juanita

 

 

 

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Juanita said:

I had heard good reports about 'Mohawks over Burma', but I'd been reluctant to get a copy because of the cost (with delivery), however you've convinced me and I have a copy shipping now

I'm sure you won't be disappointed!

[Graham Boak]

Seeking the true colours represented by an apparently odd b&w photo has to be the Holy Grail of modelling, at least to those who care about such things.  And most of us have been faced with the choice between majority opinion and what looks right to us.  There are a number of descriptions of DFS in the theatre, Including Terry Sheehan's of his P-47, but for the best account see Geoff Thomas's Eyes of the Phoenix, which although dedicated to reconnaissance in the theatre actually covers much more ground.

 

In defence of this particular Mohawk, the contrast between the colours does seem lighter than that commonly seen on Spitfires (for example), with an often expressed opinion that the DE was a locally produced variant which was darker than the MAP standard.  (By local I include suggestions of deliveries from Australia, South Africa...).  However Geoff argues that the tropical climate had significant effects on the paint resulting in the wide range of reported hues.    It is difficult to use this as an explanation for what would appear to be a fairly recently repaint: my own suspicion would lie in the use of a photographic filter insensitive to red - which normally would be given away by the centre of the roundel, but no such luck here.

 

One problem is that the best evidence from high command is not dated until later in the year, so was this confirming established practice or starting afresh?  My money is on the former, but if you think the overall use of TLS is in doubt, what colour are you going to choose for the underside?  There is a lot of evidence for a light blue, probably Azure Blue but maybe Sky Blue, on various fighters.

 

Beauchamp's book is by far the best account of the Mohawk in RAF service, especially in SEAC,  I don't think you'll be disappointed in it.  What it says about colours I don't recall, I really must dig it out and reread it anyway.  If I knew just where it was I'd have done so for this posting, as I should have done.  It was published before Geoff Thomas's masterpiece, which may or may not be relevant.

[Juanita]

Very true Graham

 

I have been digging around a bit more and apparently by the later part of the war there were Day Figher Scheme aircraft aircraft operating in the theatre...but long after the Hawk was gone.

 

I don't think it was fading because you would expect the other colours to be so affected...I think it definately relates to the paint used.

 

 

[Seahawk]

On 3/2/2021 at 11:10 AM, Graham Boak said:

Geoff Thomas did much research into this area and was firmly of the opinion that the SEAC instructions  for DG/DE were being followed, and such colour photography as exists confirms this. 

Warning: O/T for Mohawks!

 

I am with Geoff Thomas and, I think, you in believing that in those more authoritarian times officially promulgated instructions were far more likely to be followed than not.  But my belief that ALL Thunderbolts were in DE/DG was rather dented by a clip of colour film in which at least one Thunderbolt II was in grey/green.  Other Thunderbolts in the same clip are definitely in DE/DG.  NV-coded, so 79 Sq.   An anomaly maybe but I'm persuaded it did happen.

 

Edit: here's the clip, with thanks to @canberra kid whose thread it was and @epozaror finding it.  Look at NV-X KJ3xx around the 4:22 mark

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060025281

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Seahawk

[Juanita]

Great footage...and dated 1942.

 

Hard to tell exactly what shade the colours are, but the brown looks a bit lighter than how it appears on UK based aircraft during the same time preiod. Gived a good contrast with the green areas.

[Seahawk]

19 hours ago, Juanita said:

Great footage...and dated 1942.

I'm sure the RAF would have been very grateful for Thunderbolt IIs in 1942 but I think 1945 is a far more likely date.