Jump to content

Defence review 2021 (was - RAF Hercules to be withdrawn?)


Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, junglierating said:

Chinook already does SF roles it certainty wouldnt be be able to do C130s role .

Incidentally C130J arent that old if you compare them to the K varient that said they are well used but....it is a herc.

 

As for A400 from what I hear its not as bad as people say and as I say the same about Merlin ....an aircraft /helo is better than none so ....careful what you wish for.

It is kind of noisy though

 

F-35 perhaps too - maybe people just like complaining about anything new?

 

15 minutes ago, Bish said:

Then don't expect to have much of a military left if the time ever does come. We will end up like the Germans where the largest military unit is cerimonial. And as was mentioned above, we do have over seas territories. But i guess the people of the Falklands, Gib etc don't really mater.

 

I certainly didn't join to spend 22 years sat on my backside looking like a toy soldier. I know guys, including my brother, who left in the early 2000's because Ireland and the Balkans were drawing down, and a couple of years later were kicking themselves when we started deploying to Afghan and Iraq.

 

France is probably a more relevant comparison than Germany - after all, Germany hasn't had much(any?) overseas territories since 1918 and has been hesitant to field a large/overt military since 1945 - it's also more concerned about land threat from the East than global/maritime threats. That said, the German army has similar amounts of tanks to the British army and actually has a design capability/industry able to produce tanks and guns.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The C-130J v. A400M argument reminds me a lot of the C-130K v. C-130J argument when the 'Js were shiny and new. There were lots of Hercules stalwarts convinced that the new aircraft could never do the same job as the trusty old 'K. Now we get the same argument over the Atlas. Military aircraft always enter service only able to do part of their job -look how long it took for Typhoon to become truly multi-role. The RAF does not have to rely on the Atlas to do a lot of the jobs the Hercules does at the moment, but when the latter is retired (whenever that will be) the Atlas fleet will take on those duties. Doubtless it will require money spent on it to do so but I have no doubt it will fill those roles and become an incredibly versatile machine as a result. And in thirty-odd years time its crews will be arguing that its shiny, new replacement won't be able to do what the Atlas can.

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28/02/2021 at 19:13, wellsprop said:

France is probably a more relevant comparison than Germany - after all, Germany hasn't had much(any?) overseas territories since 1918 and has been hesitant to field a large/overt military since 1945 - it's also more concerned about land threat from the East than global/maritime threats. That said, the German army has similar amounts of tanks to the British army and actually has a design capability/industry able to produce tanks and guns.

When the A400M specification was being finalised it was the Germans that specified the level of soft field operations. The level was such that the Boscombe Down expert turned to the French delegates and said "They're planning on invading Russia again." 🙂 

  • Haha 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Aeronut said:

When the A400M specification was being finalised it was the Germans that specified the level of soft field operations. The level was such that the Boscombe Down expert turned to the French delegates and said "They're planning on invading Russia again." 🙂 

You are going to have to explain that im being as thick as an whale omelette 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The hardness of a ground surface can be measured on a scale called the California Bearing Ratio (CBR) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_bearing_ratio and an aircraft specification can expect to contain a CBR number relating to the surface to be operated from and therefore affect the design of the undercarriage. The A400M CBR number requested by the Germans was somewhat on the soft side, think Russian Steppes in the spring thaw, hence the joke. I must point out that this was the original specification, many parts of which were altered during contract discussions either by the nations buying (budgetary reasons) or by Airbus (couldn't/wouldn't be able to meet it with their design).

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
On 02/03/2021 at 00:03, Richard E said:

Adding my layman's t'pennyworth to the debate.

 

Shortfalls in the A400M's current capabilities have been cited as one of the reasons why the French and German Air Forces are forming a new joint squadon C-130 squadron operating a mix of C-130J and KC-130J airframes.

 

 

 

Seems a practical idea.  Which is probably why it will never happen here.

"Strategic Defence Review" is always a euphemism for cutting spending.

The buzzwords are usually "cost effectiveness" and," best value for money".

Both of which themselves equate to "doing it as cheaply as possible without regard to the ramifications arising".

It is not so very long ago that members of the current  government were questioning "the need" to have three types of transport aircraft in use!!

Don't expect common sense to rule the day.

 

John (removes cynical hat)

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Hercules, Puma and BAe 146 to go, nine Chinooks, 24 Typhoons, and 36 Hawks also withdrawn. Only three Wedgetails to be purchased and more then 48 F-35s to be bought but no commitment on numbers. £2 billion for Tempest.

 

And that's just the RAF.

  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Truro Model Builder said:

Hercules, Puma and BAe 146 to go, nine Chinooks, 24 Typhoons, and 36 Hawks also withdrawn. Only three Wedgetails to be purchased and more then 48 F-35s to be bought but no commitment on numbers. £2 billion for Tempest.

 

And that's just the RAF.

Wheres that laid down not seen this yet.

Knew C130 was at risk .....Puma nice looking but old even with the improvement ( always said ditch and upgrade Mighty king).

Do we need 60 chinooks ....clearly not .24 Typhoon is that the two seaters? Hawks kinda expected less fast jet less fast jet training As for 32 squadron....i hear a competition is on the cards for its replacement. 

Do care about the hype about technology someone has to operate it ....and trust me the stuff I deal with isntvrocket science and people have trouble...also still need boots on the ground I rather hope some MP ponds flood over and there is no one to respond.that'll teach em

Good news for Her Majesty's Jollies though 👏 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Puma is to be replaced by a new medium lift helicopter, although whether this will be in the form of one of those infamous 'capability holidays' for a few years isn't obvious. The 9 retired Chinooks - which may mean Bravo November finds a parking spot at Hendon or Cosford - will be replaced by new-buy Chinooks. 

 

The Hawk T1s go - but I note that the Red Arrows are listed as part of the Future Force under the 'Persistent Engagement' (or 'defence diplomacy' as it were called when I were a lad...) element of the Command Paper, and this might hint at a decision on a new aircraft a bit sooner than we might have thought (at a guess, there'll be some hints that the Hawk T2s will be replaced from 2033 and would anyone like to sell us circa 60 training aircraft with UK assembly as part of the deal).

 

Also, the Typhoon fleet reduction is - apparently - not going to see the loss of any of  the 7 front line squadrons - which could, if 29 is considered in purely OCU terms - mean that the sustainment fleet is being reduced in size and aircraft pushed out onto the forward fleet. If 9 Squadron is considered to have a training role only, though, this could see the loss of a squadron.

 

It's a slightly odd paper in that while there's a clear issue for concern - the reduction of air mobility - there are hints of jam tomorrow throughout it (MLH, possible Reds replacement, more than 48 F-35 [49? 50? 61?], plus new Chinook and £2bn for Tempest).

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, XV107 said:

Puma is to be replaced by a new medium lift helicopter, although whether this will be in the form of one of those infamous 'capability holidays' for a few years isn't obvious. The 9 retired Chinooks - which may mean Bravo November finds a parking spot at Hendon or Cosford - will be replaced by new-buy Chinooks. 

 

The Hawk T1s go - but I note that the Red Arrows are listed as part of the Future Force under the 'Persistent Engagement' (or 'defence diplomacy' as it were called when I were a lad...) element of the Command Paper, and this might hint at a decision on a new aircraft a bit sooner than we might have thought (at a guess, there'll be some hints that the Hawk T2s will be replaced from 2033 and would anyone like to sell us circa 60 training aircraft with UK assembly as part of the deal).

 

Also, the Typhoon fleet reduction is - apparently - not going to see the loss of any of  the 7 front line squadrons - which could, if 29 is considered in purely OCU terms - mean that the sustainment fleet is being reduced in size and aircraft pushed out onto the forward fleet. If 9 Squadron is considered to have a training role only, though, this could see the loss of a squadron.

 

It's a slightly odd paper in that while there's a clear issue for concern - the reduction of air mobility - there are hints of jam tomorrow throughout it (MLH, possible Reds replacement, more than 48 F-35 [49? 50? 61?], plus new Chinook and £2bn for Tempest).

I admire your optimistic attitude 😶 wouldnt hold your breath for Puma replacement be good IF it happens 

Edited by junglierating
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, junglierating said:

I admire your optimistic attitude 😶 wouldnt hold your breath for Puma replacement be good IF it happens 

I'm with you.  In my experience the kit being "replaced" disappears overnight but its replacement perpetually recedes into the distant future: the requirement gets reappraised (=cut or descoped) or even dropped when they think no-one is looking.  I foresee long "capability holidays" until someone is able to say the capability is no longer required anyway.

 

And what use are 3 Wedgetails?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing left to fight will be boredom soon, as we will all be locked up indefinitely.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

The only thing left to fight will be boredom soon, as we will all be locked up indefinitely.

Im not....key defence worker im off to Scotland 😛🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 on the plus side think of the stash you are working through

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

I'm with you.  In my experience the kit being "replaced" disappears overnight but its replacement perpetually recedes into the distant future: the requirement gets reappraised (=cut or descoped) or even dropped when they think no-one is looking.  I foresee long "capability holidays" until someone is able to say the capability is no longer required anyway.

 

And what use are 3 Wedgetails?

Forgot about them one up one prep one in maintainence....ripple one cab ....😒 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/28/2021 at 3:47 PM, bentwaters81tfw said:

Don't know if they are cleared to paradrop from the side doors yet.

Only if your name is Tom Cruise.... 

 

Chris.

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

How the Red Arrows keep surviving is beyond me,surely a display team is a luxury,and am suprised the BBMF hasnt gone the same way as the RNHF.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, fatalbert said:

How the Red Arrows keep surviving is beyond me,surely a display team is a luxury,and am suprised the BBMF hasnt gone the same way as the RNHF.

Simple.  For most of the Great British Public the Red Arrows and the BBMF ARE the RAF.  They don’t know or care about the rest.  And so no politician wants to be remembered as the person who got rid of either.  Getting rid of huge swathes of operational capability gets you far fewer hostile headlines.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

The latest defense cuts will lead to a number RAF aircraft leaving service very soon

C130J  all of them 

Puma  all of them

ASTORS all of them

Hawk T1  all by the REDs aircraft

24 Batch 1 Typhoons

9 older Chinooks 

I am sure there are others

  • Sad 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED said:

The latest defense cuts will lead to a number RAF aircraft leaving service very soon

C130J  all of them 

Puma  all of them

ASTORS all of them

Hawk T1  all by the REDs aircraft

24 Batch 1 Typhoons

9 older Chinooks 

I am sure there are others

 

ASTORS?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Don’t want to start any kind of argument but there’s not going to be anything left soon! 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Agent K said:

 

ASTORS?

The five Sentinel R.1 aircraft that were announced for the chop in the 2015 SDSR and which finally retired last week.

 

Mark

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeh aware of those and that they just completed their final sortie, which means they weren't part of yesterdays defence cuts as per the rest of that list as you say.

 

The OP posted this just now with a list of everything yesterday. so wasn't sure if they mixed up ASTOR with AWACS (which they didn't mention) or I missed something altogether!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Paul821 changed the title to Defence review 2021 (was - RAF Hercules to be withdrawn?)

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...