Defence review 2021 (was - RAF Hercules to be withdrawn?)

[Lord Riot]

34 minutes ago, Robert said:

The Tempest project will be interesting to see what we actually get out of it. We will probably scrap it and buy American.

 

Regards

Robert

I think you’re right Robert, probably after a prototype has already flown and billions have been invested in its development.

 

I don’t understand why we don’t just buy second hand US F-18s and F-16s for a fraction of the cost of the F-35s and developing Tempest. We could have more of them and still enough cash to fund enough equipment for the lads and lasses in harm’s way.

 

 

[Lord Riot]

On 22/03/2021 at 20:34, bentwaters81tfw said:

The only thing left to fight will be boredom soon, as we will all be locked up indefinitely.

Some of the airstrips we may need to land away at must be pretty rough for an airliner though? And what about defensive aids and room for a Land Rover or similar?

[Slater]

If it comes down to a situation where nothing but a Herc will do, presumably the joint French-German C-130 unit could be persuaded to lend a hand? Or the USAF.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Slater

[XV107]

21 hours ago, fatalbert said:

How the Red Arrows keep surviving is beyond me,surely a display team is a luxury,and am suprised the BBMF hasnt gone the same way as the RNHF.

 

Because they're identified as part of the 'persistent engagement' (previously 'defence diplomacy' and 'defence engagement') part of the government's strategy. This suggests more overseas tours and flying around with the Chiefs of the Air Staff of various nations we want to sell kit to. In truth, they've been seen by certain elements of government in this way for years - which has helped their survival in addition to governments not wanting to get berated by the press for binning them.

 

The RAF did, at one stage, moot the idea of putting them up as a cost saving, but were told (I paraphrase) 'the Red Arrows will never be taken as a cut, so it'd just be a waste of time writing the document justifying their disbandment'.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Riot said:

I don’t understand why we don’t just buy second hand US F-18s and F-16s for a fraction of the cost of the F-35s and developing Tempest. We could have more of them and still enough cash to fund enough equipment for the lads and lasses in harm’s way.

 

Because if working with the Americans, you don't get on the first night of the Air Tasking Order (ATO) if you're up against a decently-equipped opponent if you don't have 'stealth' and you lose influence. If not working with the Americans, you are at least as well equipped as your partner nations, if not better equipped, thus giving you more influence in the coalition. 

That's the rationale behind it, at least, and there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that if you want an invitation to the first night of the war, you need to have something the Joint Force Air Component Commander is willing to have on the ATO.  

Storm Shadow has slightly changed that equation, but not completely. 

Also, although the precise amount of UK content in an F-35 is not as clear-cut as used to be thought, UK industry gains nothing from buying F/A-18 or F-16. 

[Phone Phixer]

5 hours ago, Lord Riot said:

What will we use for fast transport of special forces to hot dusty places if we’ve no Hercs? 

"Fast" and "Herc" are not usually seen in the same sentence. 🤣🤣

[junglierating]

8 hours ago, Slater said:

If it comes down to a situation where nothing but a Herc will do, presumably the joint French-German C-130 unit could be persuaded to lend a hand? Or the USAF.

You are being sarcastic arent you?

[JagRigger]

Only seems like yesterday I was stood on the flighdeck of a 'new' C130J cruising up the Med.... they are still young compared to the legacy K's they replaced....

[TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED]

ASTORS Stands for (Airborne Stand off Radar System)

 

Yes my mistake, but it still stands they are leaving soon along with the E3D AWACS  in 2021 leaving us with a 2 to 3 year gap until Wedge Tail comes along.

 

The Gov is also strapped for cash so do go by their out of service date it could be very quick and very brutal

Edited March 24, 2021 by TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED

[Booty003]

Same old story for the guys and gals at the pointy end of UK Defence.  Do more, with less.....

[TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED]

We all know things have to move on and equipment reaches its sell by date,  take the Warrior 750 vehicles to be culled, now if they introduce the new AJAX and BOXER the Warriors replacement, as new vehicles equip Regiments get rid of the Warriors, all fine and dandy,  This lot are happy to gamble on a capability gap, so take the ones out and lets see of we can get away without anything until the new ones come into service.  This leaves the boys and girls to run around in Land Rovers with a GPMG strapped to it, until new vehicles come along.

 

Just to put things into sight the current Russian AFV force you can have all the Tech you want but you will end up running out of bullets as this lot is still coming over the hill.

 

TypeActive                                          Reserve

Main battle tanks 2,800                   reserve 12,500

Infantry fighting vehicles 5,160       reserve  8,500

Armoured personnel carriers 6,100  reserve  6,000

Towed artillery 150                           reserve 12,415

Self-propelled artillery1,610             reserve  4,260

Rocket artillery     1,352

SAM systems       1,531

 

That's without adding our Chinese mates

 

Still we are adding more NUKES, modern Politicians have forgot that Conventional Forces are there to buy you time, so you can get around the table and try to sort the thing out before having to Nuke the fookers 

Edited March 24, 2021 by TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED

[Welkin]

On 2/28/2021 at 6:29 PM, Slater said:

As far as tiltrotors go, the V-22 Osprey is quite expensive and I'm not sure the Budget officials could stomach the cost.

Wasn't there something called a 'Rotodyne' which seemed to have some potential?

[AWFK10]

Regarding nuclear weapons, the announcement was that the cap on the number of Trident warheads that can be held by the UK will be raised from 180 to 260.

• There is no commitment to actually produce so much as one additional warhead.
• AWE Aldermaston is the only facility for the production of British nuclear weapons.
• Mark Urban, the BBC defence correspondent, stated on the day the review was published that Aldermaston is struggling even to deliver a programme for the refurbishment of existing warheads, which has fallen way behind schedule. There is no capacity to produce any significant number of new warheads any time soon.
• This is common knowledge, so the threat actors whom the UK deterrent is meant to deter know it.
• The UK will no longer declare how many deployable warheads it has, in a new policy of deliberate ambiguity.

Add in the fact that the decision to raise the cap was "leaked" in advance and people can draw their own conclusions about why this announcement was made, who it was aimed at and the likelihood of additional warheads actually being manufactured.

[Lord Riot]

2 minutes ago, Beermonster1958 said:

Easily solved.  Reduce their commitments. Stop getting involved in overseas adventures. These do nothing to ease tensions in volatile regions and only get our young people killed for nothing.

I don't think the cuts went far enough. Spending should be slashed to the point where the UK armed forces become a UK defence force only.

Then they could easily manage with a lot less without getting involved in other people's ruinously expensive wars.

 

John.

 

Let’s hope the Argies don’t decide it’s time to invade and subjugate UK territory again then. We also have our commitment to NATO which means we need to operate away from the UK. 

[TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED]

As Beermonster1958 stated exactly where do we see ourselves, if we want to go around being the Worlds BIG I AM we need the big stick, but if we had to just defend the UK then we need bugger all. 

[Greg B]

42 minutes ago, Lord Riot said:

 

Let’s hope the Argies don’t decide it’s time to invade and subjugate UK territory again then. We also have our commitment to NATO which means we need to operate away from the UK. 

There are Argentinian members on here. Leave the jingoism out of the thread please.

[jenko]

First it was Nimrod now Hercules.

 

The gods aren't with us any more. 😂

[wellsprop]

On 22/03/2021 at 18:59, junglierating said:

I admire your optimistic attitude 😶 wouldnt hold your breath for Puma replacement be good IF it happens 

 

The AW149 is being marketed as a Puma replacement and will be doing so e demonstrator stuff this year. 

 

It can be manufactured in the UK too and its civi counterpart and its miltary/civi predecessor (AW139) are well established.

 

It does require the government to spend some cash though...

 

 

[EwenS]

23 minutes ago, jenko said:

First it was Nimrod now Hercules.

 

The gods aren't with us any more. 😂

Not quite. We still have Atlas (A400M) and Poseidon (P-8A)

[Truro Model Builder]

Tempest is not exclusively a British project. Sweden came in on it as a Gripen replacement fairly early on, and they wouldn't do so unless they thought it was worth it, and Italy has also joined the project.

 

Any way you look at it, it's a better option than buying 20-year-old F-16s...

Edited March 24, 2021 by Truro Model Builder

[wellsprop]

16 hours ago, Robert said:

The Tempest project will be interesting to see what we actually get out of it. We will probably scrap it and buy American.

 

Regards

Robert

 

Loads of UK tax payer investment, promise of orders.... Orders dissappear then sell the project off really cheap or scrap it.

 

Same as usual.

 

1 hour ago, Beermonster1958 said:

Easily solved.  Reduce their commitments. Stop getting involved in overseas adventures. These do nothing to ease tensions in volatile regions and only get our young people killed for nothing.

I don't think the cuts went far enough. Spending should be slashed to the point where the UK armed forces become a UK defence force only.

Then they could easily manage with a lot less without getting involved in other people's ruinously expensive wars.

 

John.

 

That would work, if the UK was like Switzerland (impossible to invade in one of the most peaceful continents).

 

The UK has overseas territories all over the world, is dependent on shipping, faces maritime and airborne threats from Russia and, as one of the largest world economies - is a genuine target.

 

I don't want to see the UK participate in war. But to retain a defensive capability (not only over the British Isles) over all British dependancies, a significant amount of capability is required. 

[Lord Riot]

8 minutes ago, Beermonster1958 said:

The UK "claim" to the Falkland Islands is, at best, very dubious.

If Argentina did invade then, quite frankly, I'd leave the islands to them.

They're not worth fighting for.

Give the islanders a choice : stay or, a first class air ticket to the UK. Be a lot cheaper than another stupid war and, nobody need die

Maybe we need to re-examine our "commitment" to NATO.

The Warsaw Pact died with the end of the Cold War. Maybe NATO needs to die as well.

We do not "need" to operate away from the UK. Politicians want it though because it boosts their egos and, makes them appear important. Unfortunately, they are not the ones who end up paying the price.

 

John

 

It’s the Islanders’ home though, and I’m sure they voted almost unanimously to remain part of the UK.

 

We have a commitment to defend the NATO region if required because no single European nation can deter potential Russian aggression alone. It’s kept peace in Europe since WW2. If NATO dissolved there would be too many opportunities and temptations for undesirable regimes or organisations to get unpleasant ideas.

[wellsprop]

I think there would a be a lot of unhappy people if they were told their island was being kicked out of the UK, imagine telling the Isle of Wight they were no longer part of the UK.

 

I can't be too specific (for obvious reasons!), however the Navy aren't floating (or flying) about doing nothing. A lot of their work is counter piracy, however (particularly around the gulf) there are genuine threats to UK flagged shipping and UK waters - some threats come from countries friendly with Russia (and some using Russian equipment).

 

 

 

Moreover, Russia military aircraft fly close to Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian and UK airspace, specifically to test defenses. 

[wellsprop]

I've also just realised we (including my above comments) have deviated somewhat from the original thread!

 

Back on topic, is there any plan for the Out of Service Date for the Hercs now?

 

Unfortunately, I think this will be a hit to Marshall Aerospace in Cambridge - they have an active role supporting the Hercules fleet in an engineering capacity.

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, wellsprop said:

I've also just realised we (including my above comments) have deviated somewhat from the original thread!

 

Back on topic, is there any plan for the Out of Service Date for the Hercs now?

 

Unfortunately, I think this will be a hit to Marshall Aerospace in Cambridge - they have an active role supporting the Hercules fleet in an engineering capacity.

Hercules to be out of service by 2023 per the Report.

 

Marshalls had begun putting new centre wing boxes into the fleet. Began in 2019 and was due to run until 2027. The first aircraft was returned to the RAF last August with a second then well advanced. But it was being done while the aircraft were in for scheduled maintenance. Theoretically money saved by cancelling the work. But wonder what the cancellation fees are?

 

Marshalls were appointed an approved centre wing box replacement centre by Lockheed Martin so all may not be lost on that front.

[wellsprop]

That's sounds not too gloomy for Marshalls then. I know they do an awful lot of Boeing parts there, I assume they will still have some support for the European operators.

 

Quite possibly P8 work too.