bar side Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 I am looking to build an Luftwaffe F-4F and wouldn’t mind painting it in the Norm 72 (or similar) splinter camo. There is a great webpage on their units & arrivals at https://www.milavia.net/specials/german-phantoms-early-years/ But I am not sure how long this nice camo lasted for. There look to be a couple that were repainted for the retirement & there are quite a few pictures of them. I am sure different units and airframes had different dates, but I assume the scheme made it in to the 80s but how far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 (edited) Aircraft in the Norm 72 scheme were seen into the mid '80s, at least in 1984 there were quite a good number. May have lasted another few years Edited February 27, 2021 by Giorgio N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar side Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 Thanks @Giorgio N I hoped that was the case. Just also trying to check as gut feel says the RF-4s kept the scheme longer than the F-4F. No problem with the two tone grey scheme, just trying to decide the best option for early / mid 80s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 Using AirDOC special series 01 "Bildanhang zur Geschaderchronik Fluglehrzentrum F-4F" as a reference I can confirm the original splinter camouflage was being carried into the early 1980s. The book also contains photos of trial schemes from September '81 and June/July '82; I think these led to the Norm 81 scheme (A&B?) of which I have a picture dated April '82. I'd agree with the feeling that the RF-4s stayed in the splinter scheme longer but I don't think I have seen experimental schemes for the RFs before they went to the lizard pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar side Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 Thanks @iainpeden I finally tracked down photos on ABPic and they still seem to be splinter in 83, maybe 84. My decals are for 38-28 which was the retirement splinter repaint, so good fo 83 & before plus 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 (edited) 57 minutes ago, iainpeden said: I'd agree with the feeling that the RF-4s stayed in the splinter scheme longer but I don't think I have seen experimental schemes for the RFs before they went to the lizard pattern. There were three, they (and all F-4F experimental schemes) are described in the last AirDoc volume on the Luftwaffe Phantom, Part 4 (number 09) Edited February 27, 2021 by Giorgio N 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 @iainpeden, to add some more information on the RF-4E experimental schemes, these were tested on: 35+18 of AG.52: known as "Disco Bomber", this aircraft wore a "lizard" pattern of RAL 7021, 6028 and 6014 on the upper and lower surfaces with the sides of fuselage and tail in light grey (RAL 7033). The scheme was worn between January and October 1982 35+36 of AG.52: this aircraft featured a 3-colour scheme on the upper surfaces with RAL 7012, 6014 and 6003, sides in light grey 7033 and lower surfaces in two light greys, RAL 7030 and 7035. Overall she looked somewhat similar to an aircraft in Norm 81B but with darker and greener upper surfaces. The scheme was carried between December 1981 and October 1982 35+20 of AG.52: this wore a scheme very similar to the definitive Norm 83 but with different colours, RAL 6014, 6003 and 7012. In pictures this can be distinguished from the final scheme mainly by the use of a lighter grey instead of the very dark one of Norm 83. The scheme was worn in 1982 I've searched on the web and I could only find this page with a picture of 35+36 https://www.valka.cz/10265-RF-4E-Phantom-II-v-nemeckem-letectvu And this picture of 35+20 https://www.flickr.com/photos/chaika12/33901145208 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 @Giorgio N Thanks - your post reminded me I have the AirDoc book "Luftwaffen Phantoms " - (with the lovely picture by Ronald Wong on the cover) - and pictures of the RF-4Es in the experimental schemes are in there. Our discussion has also made me realise that I don't have an F-4F in the Norm 72 scheme, so guess what's just got added to the "to do" list? I have found the old (very old) Hasegawa F-4F in the loft with markings for 38+20 of JG74 in Norm 72 and with a large sharkmouth - just hope the old decals survive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar side Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 I picked up some decals for a norm 72 F-4F from Peddinghaus Decals that arrived today. They also helped with the date question as they state 1984 on them Got an old ESCI kit in mind to use them on. Will go nicely with my Italeri RF-4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 On 2/26/2021 at 10:26 PM, bar side said: I am looking to build an Luftwaffe F-4F and wouldn’t mind painting it in the Norm 72 (or similar) splinter camo. There is a great webpage on their units & arrivals at https://www.milavia.net/specials/german-phantoms-early-years/ That photo of 37+92 looks tasty Martin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 The JG74 aircraft that participated in TAM 1984 were indeed in Norm 72, Interestingly the aircraft from another Luftwaffe unit were in Norm 81, so showing the contrast between the two finishes. Have a look at some pictures here: http://aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.com/airshows/tam_1984/tam_1984.htm It may be worth mentioning that there for a while there were also aircraft that wore the Norm 72 scheme but with the tail only painted as in the Norm 81 scheme. The early '80s were times of changes not only in the colour scheme but also in the size of the crosses numbers and unit badges, and there seem to have been various combinations 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBee Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 @bar side The decals from Peddinghaus are for the 38+28 painted in the Norm 81 scheme. (TAM 84 - photo without the zap on intakes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar side Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 Hi @JayBee the decals come with this paint scheme I thought norm 81 was the grey sided with camo only on the body & wing tops. I found this site for TAM 84 but haven’t tracked down 38+28 - have you got a link? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBee Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 @bar side The linked picture above of 38+28 was taken at TAM 84. I think it must be taken on the arival days, because the "Heineken" zap on intake is missed. 38+28 TAM 84, right side. Here is another one, taken at Neuburg, homebase of JG 74, in September 1984, including the zap. I hate to say, but Peddinghaus is not the best address for proper research. Here is the 38+44 in Norm 72 camouflage scheme taking part at TAM 84. It is one of the last F-4F painted in Norm 72, because the (few) "painted on" stencils seen here are the same like in the early Norm 81 scheme. Before this change and in the back years, all stencils of Norm 72 are transfers (over 1000 !) and applied in a similar (and time consuming) way compared to our model decals. Dont know about the real size of the Peddinghaus items on the sheet, but most of them look strange and wrong to me (even for Norm 81) Maybe you have some spares left for the big iron crosses and digits for the Norm 72. Iron cross on wing (4) is 1000mm, on fuselage (2) 800. Digits (3844) are 600mm high. Norm 81 early iron cross is 500mm, digits are 300mm Later the changed the size of iron cross to 400mm and only two applied on wings (top left, bottom right). Early Norm 81 have 4 crosses on wings. Hope this helps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar side Posted March 3, 2021 Author Share Posted March 3, 2021 Thanks @JayBee that’s helpful. Yes, should always base the research from real photos rather than relying on third party stuff. The crosses & numbers are undersized. I have spare larger crosses but having checked the numbers I am coming up short. Anyone know of Cold War 1/48 Luftwaffe number decals? I found this but they don’t look great I know Xtradecal do RAF numbers, but I can’t even find an index for them other than via Hannants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldwin8 Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 3 hours ago, bar side said: Anyone know of Cold War 1/48 Luftwaffe number decals? HaHen decals give you options but for the 81Norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBee Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 @bar side Harald Hensel (HaHen Decals) has what you need 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar side Posted March 3, 2021 Author Share Posted March 3, 2021 Cheers @JayBee I had looked through the HaHen site earlier & missed them. Nice Norm 81 set too @baldwin8 hadn’t really looked at their sets before 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldwin8 Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, bar side said: hadn’t really looked at their sets before I've used them once and very pleased, very thin and very opaque. Worth the investment. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 I have just received my HaHen decals for 38+33, the 20th anniversary a/c for Jabo 36 (HaHen 72038). They look well detailed and include decals for the handles and buttons which operate the cockpit. Excellent service and communications - looking forward to applying them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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