Airfix new 1/35 Cromwell Tanks

[IanC]

55 minutes ago, rickshaw said:

  I think you and other "Rivet Counters" expend an awful lot of hot air over basically nothing.  

 

Oh come on, its part of the hobby...😄

 

I don't think it's wrong to point out inaccuracies when discussing a new kit, even those deemed trivial by some. Whether or not it matters in the end is up to the individual, of course. 

 

To be honest, I'd never even noticed the wheel bolt discrepancy, and it wouldn't necessarily stop me buying the kit. But I have to agree that Airfix should have picked it up during their research. I'm sure they'll check next time...😉

 

 

 

 

[Bullbasket]

3 hours ago, rickshaw said:

I think you and other "Rivet Counters" expend an awful lot of hot air over basically nothing.  As I have suggested, if you don't like it, then either don't buy it or procure an aftermarket set of wheels. 

Got out of bed, came down stairs, made myself a cup of Rosy, noticed that the wind had dropped, it had stopped raining, and the sun was out. What could spoil it? Then I opened up BM and saw this reply in the Cromwell page. Why is it that some people just can't except that we are all different and see that this wonderful hobby of ours comes in all shapes and sizes? It's not a one size fits all. Some are happy to build a kit OOTB whilst others expect a little more from the contents of said box. 

I could have replied directly to the insult of "expending an awful lot of hot air", but that would just have played into the agent provocateur's hands and got the thread shut down. And besides which, there has been enough thread drift already. So all I'll do is direct the gentleman to an empty room where I'm sure that he will find some like minded souls to have a row with.

So, getting back to what this thread is about, thanks @AntPhillips for posting the photos of the sprues.

 

John.

 

[Test Valley Models]

On the subject of being able to buy aftermarket wheels.

You buy aftermarket bits to make a kit better, not to make it right

[Bullbasket]

35 minutes ago, Test Valley Models said:

On the subject of being able to buy aftermarket wheels.

You buy aftermarket bits to make a kit better, not to make it right

Exactly. There have been many cases with different tank kits, where the wheels were correct, but some of the detail was not so well defined, so replacing them was an option for anyone who wanted better definition.

BTW. As an aside, anyone who thinks that 5 pages on BM discussing the rights and wrongs of the Airfix Cromwell is OTT, should take a look at Missing Lynx. They'r up to 16 pages and someone has even started a new thread about it.

 

John.

[Julien]

1 hour ago, Test Valley Models said:

On the subject of being able to buy aftermarket wheels.

You buy aftermarket bits to make a kit better, not to make it right

This is not the first kit modellers buy aftermarket for to correct errors and it certainly wont be the last so your argument is not really a valid one. I have a few kits which are basically decent kits which have needed a bit of help here and there.

[Test Valley Models]

1 minute ago, Julien said:

This is not the first kit modellers buy aftermarket for to correct errors and it certainly wont be the last so your argument is not really a valid one. I have a few kits which are basically decent kits which have needed a bit of help here and there.

The argument is totally valid !

If they paid attention to detail you wouldn't need to buy aftermarket kits to make it right.

 

If you bought a car that was supposed to have 5 wheel nuts instead of 4 would you say to the salesman "never mind I'll fork out  £400 on the right set of wheels ?"

Of course you wouldn't, the principle is the same, it's only the cost that is different.

[Julien]

You cant equate cars to toy models.

[Test Valley Models]

2 minutes ago, Julien said:

You cant equate cars to toy models.

As I said the principle is the same, only the cost is different.

In your eyes at what price point does something wrong become unacceptable ?

It isn't just the fact that it is wrong that makes it unaccpetable, it's the fact that it got past several people, a prototype stage, a 3d model stage and initial production prototype and it was still released wrong.

If people stopped accepting second best, quality in goods would increase.

[AWFK10]

1 hour ago, Julien said:

You cant equate cars to toy models.

If we were still talking about the 2s 9d baggies of my childhood I would agree but this is a product that retails for thirty quid, which to me at least is a lot of money, and that's pitched at the enthusiast market where accuracy is at a premium. A 1/35 Cromwell isn't in my particular area of interest but I might have bought several examples of Airfix's new 1/72 Sherman if I hadn't read a dispassionate review of it. I'm happy to correct and add prominent details to a vintage kit that was essentially intended as a toy, like the 63 year-old Airfix RE8 that I'm cutting about at the moment, or to the likes of an Armourfast wargames model, but I don't expect to have to live with or fix glaringly obvious faults/omissions in a modern, mainstream kit. This isn't just a gripe about Airfix. I bought a Trumpeter Sherman where I could see as soon as I took it out of the box that the glacis plate was at completely the wrong angle: the company's kits are regularly criticised for gross inaccuracy. The Revell Halifax II positively shouts at you that it's all wrong, with engine cowlings 50% too wide, and there's been a lot of discussion on Britmodeller about the failings of the AZ Model DH Hornets. All this might have been forgivable in the 1970s (though the Frog Hornet was panned in Aircraft Illustrated for its shortcomings when it was released half a century ago and they didn't include the windscreen being incorrect, any more than Airfix's toy Cromwell of the same period had the wrong number of wheel bolts) but not in models researched 30, 40 or 50 years later and sold on the premise that they're accurate minature replicas geared to the wants of a small and discerning group of potential buyers. 

[Ray_W]

Thanks Ant @AntPhillips for posting the pics.

 

I too like a rigorous kit critique. It helps with my purchase decision and what corrective action, if any, I may take. The other big advantage is such critique builds my knowledge on the subject at hand. I will be into my Tamiya Cromwell very soon and there is a a lot of cross-over discussion I find very useful - rear decks, possible aftermarket wheels and the list goes on. Besides, I find the discussion entertaining so long as it does not get personal. It will be a sad day when all kits are perfect. 

 

 

 

[Stuart Wilson]

I certainly welcome people pointing out flaws in kits. It helps me to decide where to spend my money. If it doesn't bother other people then that's their choice too.

 

Personally I like an easily built kit that is basically accurate. Tamiya are the masters at this. I'm happy to buy Airfix when they get it basically right. Their 1/72 Phantom took some flak but I like it and have built 3 of them. I don't think I'll be buying the Cromwell as I think the Tamiya kit will do for me and the wheel bolt issue is something I couldn't overlook. If other people want to buy it great. Hopefully Airfix will continue to release 1/35 kits and will improve. There are plenty of subjects yet to be kitted and the ambulance they have planned could be a good seller. I wish them well and hope to buy future releases in this scale from them. 

 

Stuart

[AntPhillips]

I'm hopeful that Airfix will at some point release another version of the kit with the later engine deck and side opening bow gunners hatch that were originally included in the CAD renders,  there are parts on the sprues that are marked as "not for use" on both versions released so far, and the mystery sprue C surely will appear at some point.

 

I doubt this will be this year, possibly it might be in next years release list, and maybe, just maybe the wheels will be corrected, as Academy are involved in its development, there is a precedent as their initial release of the M3 tanks included suspension bogies that were too high, they produced a sprue of new parts that were included in later releases. 

 

I really do hope that the kit sells well for Airfix, the box artwork will certainly appeal to impulse buyers, and those buyers may not be as bothered about accuracy issues as some of us that are longer in the tooth or dare I say more nerdy😉 .

 

I certainly didn't start this thread with the intention of putting Airfix down, but if they want to become a player in the 1/35 marketplace they need to accept input from those with more knowledge of the subject matter. I don't profess to be an expert on all things Cromwell related but I listen to the discussions with those that are and even at my ripe old age I enjoy the learning process. 

 

With my engineering background I like to think that if I was part of the Airfix design team on this kit, I'd be kicking myself about these minor errors and would be vowing to get it right next time.

 

As I've already said I bought both the kits, I actually preordered them as soon as they were announced to show my support for Airfix, I'm not unduly disappointed but feel that its more a case of the proverbial "spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar". 

 

Happy modelling

Ant

[spruecutter96]

3 hours ago, Ray_W said:

It will be a sad day when all kits are perfect. 

 

This day will NEVER happen, so - in the meantime - let us all be happy!

 

Chris. 

[magman2]

My last post on this Subject.

Airfix, should note £30 for a substandard kit, is not going to do them any favours. Better manufactures are producing more accurate kits. And for The Airfix appeasement modellers, Enjoy your substandard kits.

[junco]

Thanks for posting the photos Ant.

Saves me buying both of these as I see no benefits of the kits over my Tamiya and AA stash.

Regards,

Neil

 

[Circloy]

9 hours ago, AntPhillips said:

I'm hopeful that Airfix will at some point release another version of the kit with the later engine deck and side opening bow gunners hatch that were originally included in the CAD renders,  there are parts on the sprues that are marked as "not for use" on both versions released so far, and the mystery sprue C surely will appear at some point.

 

I doubt this will be this year, possibly it might be in next years release list, and maybe, just maybe the wheels will be corrected, as Academy are involved in its development, there is a precedent as their initial release of the M3 tanks included suspension bogies that were too high, they produced a sprue of new parts that were included in later releases. 

 

I really do hope that the kit sells well for Airfix, the box artwork will certainly appeal to impulse buyers, and those buyers may not be as bothered about accuracy issues as some of us that are longer in the tooth or dare I say more nerdy😉 .

 

I certainly didn't start this thread with the intention of putting Airfix down, but if they want to become a player in the 1/35 marketplace they need to accept input from those with more knowledge of the subject matter. I don't profess to be an expert on all things Cromwell related but I listen to the discussions with those that are and even at my ripe old age I enjoy the learning process. 

 

With my engineering background I like to think that if I was part of the Airfix design team on this kit, I'd be kicking myself about these minor errors and would be vowing to get it right next time.

 

As I've already said I bought both the kits, I actually preordered them as soon as they were announced to show my support for Airfix, I'm not unduly disappointed but feel that its more a case of the proverbial "spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar". 

 

Happy modelling

Ant

None of your posts have come across as putting airfix down they've only been about identifying the errors and are appreciated for it.

 

The putting down of Airfix has been done by others.

 

There are signs on MissingLynx that if you e-mail Airfix, or the parent company Hornby, the messages do get through. One can only hope they are listened to and acted upon so that future releases can be corrected.

 

How many that saw the initial renders spotted and reported the errors when there might still have been a chance to correct them?

 

 

[nheather]

19 hours ago, Test Valley Models said:

The argument is totally valid !

If they paid attention to detail you wouldn't need to buy aftermarket kits to make it right.

 

If you bought a car that was supposed to have 5 wheel nuts instead of 4 would you say to the salesman "never mind I'll fork out  £400 on the right set of wheels ?"

Of course you wouldn't, the principle is the same, it's only the cost that is different.

 

Agreed.  The same thing was going through my head.  I’m not sure it is a great analogy but it is along the right lines.

 

I can’t believe the suggestions that I should have to pay £10 to correct a £26 model.

 

As for movie analogies defending model errors, that is different again.  There are not a vast number of P-51s to choose out there so the film makers have a choice, use what real aircraft is available or use CGI, which would you prefer.

 

People starving in the world is again irrelevant.  Yes it is sad, no one is denying that, but this is about the hobby, whether you buy the Airfix or the Tamiya Cromwell is not going to change world poverty.  Unless you are suggesting we should stop making models altogether and give all the money we would have spent to charity.

 

And finally, as for the number of nuts on the wheels.  Yes many kits have errors.  The issue with this one is that it is pretty fundamental, it’s not like you have to go to a museum and make a detailed study of a real vehicle to work it out.  I reckon if you gave a picture of a Cromwell to some kids at school and said “copy this” then yes, there would be plenty of inaccuracies but I doubt the number of nuts on the wheels would be one of them.  It’s actually easier to draw a set of eight nuts than a set of six.  And the other issue is this was a big event, Airfix’s first ever, new tool 1:35 armour model.  It was heralded with a fanfare, it was a chance for Airfix to say “take us seriously we can do 1:35 just as good as Tamiya, maybe even better” and possibly they blew that opportunity.  So it’s not so much about two missing nuts but a lost opportunity.

 

I’m hoping that this doesn’t ruin sales too much that it puts Airfix off doing more 1:35.  I’m looking forward to their ambulance and hope they can redeem themselves. Unfortunately, it is not the sort of model I am interested in so I won’t be buying that one either but I have fingers crossed that it will be excellent, will sell well and encourage Airfix to do more 1:35.

 

So for me, I’m sad because I was looking forward to this Cromwell (even though I have the Tamiya one in my stash) and now I won’t be buying it.  So you could say the number of nuts isn’t an issue for me modelling-wise because I’m not going to have to deal with the issue.  I certainly wouldn’t consider shaving them off and sticking on replacements, nor would I consider buying after-market.  Why, because my skills are not good enough - if I tried the ‘shave and replace’ it would look a mess, and finished results, my ability, just doesn’t warrant getting sucked into expensive after-market stuff.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[diablo rsv]

As I have both the Airfix and Tamiya kits sitting here I thought I would do a quick comparison.

Apart from the wheels as has been discussed and the pistol port bolt omission which isn't that easy to correct, I found that dimensionally both kits are almost identical as far I can tell.

Detail wise again there is little to choose between them. Tamiya have included some texture to the surfaces of the turret plates and the air inlet cover which is very subtle, Airfix have none.

 

   

 

 

 

They are similarly priced kits and I would say that both require some aftermarket to get them to my satisfaction. They are reasonably priced kits at a around £26.00 and the after market required would bring them up to a similar price point of the Border Model Crusader Mk.III. at around £55.00, which doesn't really require after market and is a similarly sized kit.  

Textures are probably a personal taste and can be added quite simply, but I prefer the way Tamiya have tackled them especially the welding around the bolts, Airfix have made them a little too uniform but again it wouldn't take much work to alter them.  For me the Tamiya kit would need tracks and a barrel at least and the Airfix kit needs replacement wheels and turret plates with a correct pistol port. The Tamiya would be a quicker build with a lower parts count however the Airfix design seems to point to an easier upgrade to different Mk's. As has been stated Airfix also include different gun barrels, mantlets and turret front plates.

Personally I don't think I would buy the Airfix kit to replace the Tamiya one but if I didn't have one in the stash it would be a difficult decision, which is testament to the quality of the 20 odd year old Tamiya.  Airfix have defiantly missed an opportunity here, which is a real shame. It's not a bad kit but it seems to me that there are basic errors that could have been easily avoided. It's not like there isn't any reference material about as the photo above shows.

I really don't know why they didn't take the opportunity to at least include the later engine deck and hatches for the Mk.VI. as the way the kit is designed clearly allows for it. To include the same plastic in both kits is at least lazy or at worst a bit of a con for those that pre-ordered both kits.

 

Wayne 

  

 

[nheather]

3 minutes ago, diablo rsv said:

As I have both the Airfix and Tamiya kits sitting here I thought I would do a quick comparison.

Apart from the wheels as has been discussed and the pistol port bolt omission which isn't that easy to correct, I found that dimensionally both kits are almost identical as far I can tell.

Detail wise again there is little to choose between them. Tamiya have included some texture to the surfaces of the turret plates and the air inlet cover which is very subtle, Airfix have none.

 

   

 

 

 

They are similarly priced kits and I would say that both require some aftermarket to get them to my satisfaction. They are reasonably priced kits at a around £26.00 and the after market required would bring them up to a similar price point of the Border Model Crusader Mk.III. at around £55.00, which doesn't really require after market and is a similarly sized kit.  

Textures are probably a personal taste and can be added quite simply, but I prefer the way Tamiya have tackled them especially the welding around the bolts, Airfix have made them a little too uniform but again it wouldn't take much work to alter them.  For me the Tamiya kit would need tracks and a barrel at least and the Airfix kit needs replacement wheels and turret plates with a correct pistol port. The Tamiya would be a quicker build with a lower parts count however the Airfix design seems to point to an easier upgrade to different Mk's. As has been stated Airfix also include different gun barrels, mantlets and turret front plates.

Personally I don't think I would buy the Airfix kit to replace the Tamiya one but if I didn't have one in the stash it would be a difficult decision, which is testament to the quality of the 20 odd year old Tamiya.  Airfix have defiantly missed an opportunity here, which is a real shame. It's not a bad kit but it seems to me that there are basic errors that could have been easily avoided. It's not like there isn't any reference material about as the photo above shows.

I really don't know why they didn't take the opportunity to at least include the later engine deck and hatches for the Mk.VI. as the way the kit is designed clearly allows for it. To include the same plastic in both kits is at least lazy or at worst a bit of a con for those that pre-ordered both kits.

 

Wayne 

  

 

Thanks for those comparison photos - just based on those parts I’d have to conclude that the Tamiya parts look significantly better.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Jasper dog]

Well chaps I must say this thread is great,  gives me a bit of lighthearted relief from the day-to-day. 

But come on chaps you're armour modellers, you're supposed to be better than this but unfortunately you're beginning to sound like aircraft modellers...😉

Listened to an interview yesterday on one of the podcasts and armour modellers in particular have a good reputation for tolerance, helpfulness, understanding and friendliness...

 

Some very valid points have been raised and in no way do I wish to criticise those. Let's remember this is a hobby that we all enjoy in our own way, there are some terrific builds going for as much accuracy as possible and some wonderful oob builds that demonstrates what can be achieved as the manufacturer intended. 

 

No problem with discussing the merits of the kit but let's keep it to the kit and not the modeller...

 

Airfix has slipped up, hopefully they'll get the message and do better next time🤞 this shouldn't stop them from further ventures into 1/35. Which it shouldn't as by some accounts armour modelling is having a boom time at the moment.

 

But mainly big thanks to @AntPhillips and @diablo rsvfor kindly posting pics and answering questions and allowing others to make up there own minds on whether to purchase or not.

 

Now I'm going to retreat back to the bunker and try and do some painting! 🙂

 

Take care and stay safe everyone. 

 

Atb

Darryl 

 

 

 

 

[Bullbasket]

15 minutes ago, Jasper dog said:

you're beginning to sound like aircraft modellers

BURN THE WITCH! Wash your mouth out now, ptoo!

Know what you mean Darryl, and it's just so nice (and unusual) to read so much common sense.

 

John.

[Ray_W]

4 hours ago, diablo rsv said:

As I have both the Airfix and Tamiya kits sitting here I thought I would do a quick comparison.

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Very useful comparison. I like the Tamiya textures and detail. Nice welds. Oh well, I may as well stick with my Tamiya. Shame, if Airfix had done this much cheaper, or raised the bar (equalled) on detail, or chose a version not covered they would of been on a winner. Anyway, for many, it is probably easier to pick up a New Airfix Cromwell, while it lasts, and build a nice one for the collection - correct, improve or build as is. They'll still sell.

 

Oh for the days when kit manufacturer's designed and manufactured on their own premises. Short walk to the workshop to say "you got it wrong". No we got it right "look at your drawings". Should of consulted the in-house passionate modeller and armour expert early - "the wheels are wrong". Really who am I to complain, their website looks nice. 🙃

 

Ray  

[Kingsman]

So does all of the foregoing boil down to this?

 

You can buy the Airfix kit for about £30 and it needs a new set of wheels for about £12.  Or you can buy the Tamiya kit for about £30 and it needs a new set of tracks for about £13 (SKP workable - maybe £7 or 8 for Hobbyboss non-workable).  If you prefer Friuls, Modelkasten etc anyway then it makes no different either way.  You will have to do the same corrective work on both engine decks and there's little or nothing to choose between them in other detail quality or finesse.

 

Which is a sad indictment on the progress of Cromwell kits in 24 years.......  In fact it's an indictment on the general state of British WW2 tank kits in 1/35 when we have multiple kits of every real and many imagined German tank and continue to see more.

[Bullbasket]

Now 'ere's a funny thing missus. Oops sorry! I came over all Max Miller then (if you're under the age of 50, you'll just have to Google him). I'm no engineer, designer, etc., but it occurred to me that instead of going down the same route that Tamiya took, Airfix could have approached this from a different angle and then been able to get a hell of a lot of mileage out of these moulds. Take a look at this;

If they had moulded the hull without the engine deck in place, they could then have produced a separate moulding for the B/C deck, which could then have been used for earlier versions such as the Centaur. It could also have been used for Mk.lV's as from what I've read in the Museum booklet on the Cromwell, they went into action with these as well as D decks. 

Then they could have produced a new deck to cover the D engine deck, which obviously would suffice for the later models.

At the front, they could have left out the whole panel and then produced mouldings to cover the original hatch, the Vauxhall hatch and then finally, the side opening hatch. IMO, they have missed a great opportunity to be able to produce many variants from these moulds.

 

John.

[Cerberus]

1 hour ago, Bullbasket said:

If they had moulded the hull without the engine deck in place

Isn't that exactly how they have done it? I thought the engine deck was a separate part in this Airfix kit? Front section, Back section, and it all seems to sit over a strange layer part underneath?

 

And I still don't understand why there are 2 kits?, If both boxes contain the same parts? What is this witchcraft and trickery?

 

Matt

 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Cerberus