All the Mosquito questions etc

[DonM2.0]

A question about the black under surfaces of night fighter mosquitoes, on the later Mk. XII and newer with A.I. radar noses, I see a mixed reference to some with and some without the black applied. Was there a memo handed down from Fighter Command on this or was this more of a unit level thing that was found to be of no use? I see 99% if not all NF.30 did not have the black so at some point it was not needed, or fitters were told not to apply it. Google hasn't been my fiend and wartime pics are few.

[Graham Boak]

Black undersides were required for night intruders as seen on Mk.IIs as well.  The general principle was that aircraft with early standards of radar were used on intruder missions, with the superior radars retained for missions where they could not fall into enemy hands.  By the end of the war this came to matter less, particularly as Bomber Command were not so fussy and magnetrons in H2S fell into German hands, permitting them to (eventually) copy what was probably accurately described as war-winning technology.  This is why German night fighters and maritime recce aircraft were seen with large drag-producing antennae arrays feeding less-efficient radars for some years after these disappeared from Allied aircraft.   I presume that is why black undersides are not seen on Mk.30s.  Photos are rare because security was high on radar-equipped units.

 

PS One other possible reason is that late in the war direct escort sorties for Bomber Command missions were being flown by 100 Group night fighters, and it is possible that these were considered to need the superior night air-to-air camouflage of the lighter colour.  Or more simply because the rules said black undersides specifically for intruder missions, which they weren't specifically flying, and no-one had actually got round to considering whether there was a need or not for dedicated night escort camouflage.  In practice I don't think there had become any great differentiating in the units, which each doing both "close escort" and "free hunt".  Try to find a copy of "Confound and Destroy" for a fuller account of the fascinating struggles.

[Culham]

I have been researching the use of enlarged elevator horn balances on Mosquitos and have come across much contradictory information.The only area that most sources I have used agree on is that the PR34 and TR33, TR37 and TT39 Sea Mosquitos were so fitted.

 

I have read somewhere (not sure where) that (all?) aircraft fitted with bulged bomb bays were fitted with the larger horn balances either on conversion or on the production line. Freightdog's BXVI/B£% improvement set states that the larger balances were not fitted to BXVIs. Does this mean they were fitted to the B35?

 

However, in Airframe & Miniature No 8 Mosquito Pt 1, on pages 99 & 100, has annotated drawings of the BXVI with enlarged balances while the equivalent drawings for the B35 (BIV Special and BIX) do not!

 

Wingleaders excellent DH Mosquito Bombers Pt 1 (p27) has a photo of a BIV (Special)  which it says is fitted with the larger elevator balances. Photographs I've taken of B35/TT35 aircraft at Cosford, Duxford and Hendon are not fitted with the larger horn balances

 

I'm confused (mind you, that's not difficult!). Any help/information would be most helpful and welcome.

 

Pat

[Graham Boak]

One possible point is that postwar aircraft were limited to a reduced maximum take-off weight, for single-engine safety reasons, and this may have a bearing on postwar fit.  My understanding is that the increased stability was needed for carrying the 4000lb bomb, which probably wasn't considered as a peacetime load.  Whether this would justify removing extended elevators fitted on the wartime production line is another matter.

[Work In Progress]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:15 PM, Graham Boak said:

My understanding is that the increased stability was needed for carrying the 4000lb bomb, which probably wasn't considered as a peacetime load.

I think this is correct. It is not the bulged bomb bay as such that requires the elevators: it is the 4000 lb load concealed within

[Culham]

Apologies for the late reply, thank you for the information.

 

Pat

[Railfan87]

Hello Mosquito mavens,

 

I'm building the Tamiya FB Mk. 6/ NF Mk. 2 in 1:72 as RF838 of 404 RCAF squadron.  The Xtradecal instructions show this bird with slipper tanks.  I see that Tamiya has included them on the sprues (A20-A23) but I'm not sure of the location, i.e. distance from the wing root.  This mossie had rockets, if that factors in. 

Worst case I'll estimate from the Xtradecal page. 

 

When I found a photo of RF838 and saw the slipper tanks, I went looking for them in 1:72.  I couldn't find any, so I was going to build it without them.  Then, with some parts off the sprues, I noticed these parts.  There's no reference to them in the instructions, so I assume sprue A is used in another mossie version kit.  Had to have a bit of a laugh at myself for not seeing them. 

 

Thanks in advance,
Chris

[elger]

The instructions for the NF Mk.XIII mention them. You can download the pdf from Scalemates

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/tamiya-60765-havilland-mosquito-nf-mkxiii-xvii--121605

[Railfan87]

1 hour ago, elger said:

The instructions for the NF Mk.XIII mention them. You can download the pdf from Scalemates

Yes, I found that, too.  From the placement on that, it looks as if they would be further inboard on the FB Mk.VI

 

Chris

Edited February 1, 2023 by Railfan87

[Chuck1945]

I recently did the 1/72 Tamiya B.IV with slipper tanks. Wing parts are same as the NF II/FB VI. There are flashed over mounting holes on the inside of the bottom wing halves. Just need to figure out which ones are for tanks instead of rockets.

[elger]

7 hours ago, Railfan87 said:

Yes, I found that, too.  From the placement on that, it looks as if they would be further inboard on the FB Mk.VI

 

Chris

 

I don't think they are - I think Mosquito wings were essentially the same between variants. Some variation to keep in mind was that earlier production variants were limited to 250lb bombs on the wings (and later 500lb bombs were possible to carry), but that doesn't apply to the position of the slipper tanks.

[Graham Boak]

There were two different Mosquito wings: the early ones and the Mk.VI wings, the latter becoming standard.  This is why night fighter marks tended to come in pairs, one of which was for refurbished aircraft which started their life as Mk.IIs, and the other one had Mk.VI wings.

 

The kit Mk.IV may be easily modified to carry slipper tanks but I don't think the actual aircraft were - unless they had been rewinged?  The early wings could not carry 250lb bombs: this sounds like a misunderstanding of the original bombbay requirements.

[Railfan87]

8 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

I recently did the 1/72 Tamiya B.IV with slipper tanks. Wing parts are same as the NF II/FB VI. There are flashed over mounting holes on the inside of the bottom wing halves. Just need to figure out which ones are for tanks instead of rockets.

It looks to me like the tank mounting holes are among the rockets in the Tamiya wing.  I'll have to move them toward the engine nacelles. 

 

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

There were two different Mosquito wings: the early ones and the Mk.VI wings, the latter becoming standard.  This is why night fighter marks tended to come in pairs, one of which was for refurbished aircraft which started their life as Mk.IIs, and the other one had Mk.VI wings.

 

The kit Mk.IV may be easily modified to carry slipper tanks but I don't think the actual aircraft were - unless they had been rewinged?  The early wings could not carry 250lb bombs: this sounds like a misunderstanding of the original bombbay requirements.

 

[Railfan87]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The kit Mk.IV may be easily modified to carry slipper tanks but I don't think the actual aircraft were - unless they had been rewinged? 

 

In addition to the instructions with the Xtradecal set, there is an incident report online describing this aircraft returning to base due to "drop tank trouble."   I'll extrapolate the location of the tanks from the Xtradecal drawing. 

 

I just stumbled onto a decal set by Aviaeology that shows them outboard of the landing lights.   Time to get the ruler, a vernier and a pin vise! 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Railfan87

[PhilHoff]

Hello,

 

Just to clear any misunderstanding, as far as I know, the position of the drop tanks didn't vary, and Tamiya got it right. When the drop tanks and rockets were carried together, only the two outboards rocket carriers coud be used, as shown on the Aviaeology decal instructions. Just to say you can spare yourself the ruler and vernier and simply use Tamiya's pre-drilled holes.

 

Hope this helps

 

Philippe

[Dave Swindell]

On 01/02/2023 at 17:28, Railfan87 said:

The Xtradecal instructions show this bird with slipper tanks.  I see that Tamiya has included them on the sprues (A20-A23) but I'm not sure of the location, i.e. distance from the wing root

Hi Chris

The holes for the drop tanks are flashed over, so if you've not assembled the wings yet you can use these to drill the correct locating holes

They're shown in the nightfighter instructions here in step 2, they're the 1.2mm holes marked for option B.

https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/6/0/5/121605-17-instructions.pdf

If you have assembled the wings, the locating holes are 37.7mm in from the wing tip joint line, and 5.5mm & 14.6mm back from the leading edge at this point.

There's a chordwise line of 3 tiny scribed circles on the wing underside at this point, and the bomb rack fits here as well, but uses the smaller more widely spaced flashed over holes.

The 1st & 2nd rocket mounts from inboard are either side of the drop tank mount, which can be seen in some photo's where rocket rails are fitted

 

[Railfan87]

On 2/3/2023 at 3:02 AM, PhilHoff said:

Hello,

 

Just to clear any misunderstanding, as far as I know, the position of the drop tanks didn't vary, and Tamiya got it right. When the drop tanks and rockets were carried together, only the two outboards rocket carriers coud be used, as shown on the Aviaeology decal instructions. Just to say you can spare yourself the ruler and vernier and simply use Tamiya's pre-drilled holes.

 

Hope this helps

 

Philippe

 

Thanks Philippe,
I did find another thread here, "Ship Killer! 1/32 Mosquito FB.Mk.VI, 404 Sqn RCAF, Banff Strike Wing 1945", that shows the two outboard carriers with two rockets stacked on each.  I mulled that over and didn't come up with a stable way of recreating that from kit parts and styrene or brass strip.  I don't have the Aviaeology instructions or any photos of a 404 Sqn mozzie from a good angle.  I found the pre-drilled holes,  and decided to exercise modeller's license and move the drop tanks inboard of the four rockets.   "Re-calculating..." ☺️

On 2/6/2023 at 10:20 AM, Dave Swindell said:

...

If you have assembled the wings, the locating holes are 37.7mm in from the wing tip joint line, and 5.5mm & 14.6mm back from the leading edge at this point.

There's a chordwise line of 3 tiny scribed circles on the wing underside at this point, and the bomb rack fits here as well, but uses the smaller more widely spaced flashed over holes.

The 1st & 2nd rocket mounts from inboard are either side of the drop tank mount, which can be seen in some photo's where rocket rails are fitted

 

Thanks Dave,
Wings are on and painted MSG. LOL.   I can fill the two inboard sets of hole for the rocket rail mounts, and put the drop tanks in the right place now, but I'm not clear what you mean by "The 1st & 2nd rocket mounts from inboard are either side of the drop tank mount,..."   From wingtip in,  I'm interpreting: rocket, rocket, drop tank ... then it gets fuzzy. 

 

I haven't ruled out putting the four rockets in their default position with the drop tanks inboard of that, although, knowing me, I'll regret that later if I do. 😂

 

Chris

[Dave Swindell]

1 hour ago, Railfan87 said:

From wingtip in,  I'm interpreting: rocket, rocket, drop tank ... then it gets fuzzy. 

From wingtip in - Rocket, Rocket, Rocket, Droptank mounting bracket, Rocket.

The 4 rockets are evenly spaced, and the droptank mounting bracket is midway between the two inboard rockets.

If the droptank is fitted, only the two outboard rockets can be carried, as the droptank, when fitted over the mounting bracket, covers the mounts for the two inboard rockets.

The double stacked rockets in the outboard position were developed so that droptanks and 8 rockets could be carried at the same time. A guard rail had to be fitted to prevent the droptank hitting the rockets when released.

[Railfan87]

16 minutes ago, Dave Swindell said:

The double stacked rockets in the outboard position were developed so that droptanks and 8 rockets could be carried at the same time. A guard rail had to be fitted to prevent the droptank hitting the rockets when released.

Perfect!

Thanks Dave et al. I have what I need to carry on.

 

This was meant to be a straight OOB build, but no, I had to start researching ... LOL
 

Cheers!

Chris

[ilj]

question:  what was the most likely spinner colour of this ac (LR347 T)?  it looks very dark in the black and white photograph (Osprey publications Mosquito Bomber/Fighter-Bomber Units 1942–45), and is shown as dark sea gray similar to the overall upper side colour in the illustration (Eagle Strike decal set 48175 Mosquito Best Sellers, Part I) (fair use)

 

possibilities I am considering include:  dark blue (similar to roundel blue), extra dark sea gray, dull red, and black

 

ilj

 

 

 

 

 

[Black Knight]

I think it is too dark for either red or EDSG

I favour dark blue

[Dave Swindell]

8 hours ago, ilj said:

 

possibilities I am considering include:  dark blue (similar to roundel blue), extra dark sea gray, dull red, and black

Dark Blue or Black, as @Black Knight says, too dark for EDSG or dull red.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    Was the aircraft from 'B'  flight

 

   as blue used to be used as B flight colour identifier 

 

    cheers

        jerry

[franky boy]

Hi everyone 

 

Im planning on building an NF36 for the upcoming deHavilland GB. My question is does anyone have any photos of the AI MK10 radar sets installed in the cockpits of these aircraft? I’m planning on using the Tamiya Mkxiii/xix kit which has an earlier AI setup and also rob some bits if necessary from an old Airfix NF30 kit in the stash. I was wondering if it’s possible to use the kit parts from the Tamiya boxing for the AI or if it’s time to get scratch building. 
 

I know this is a post war version but thought this thread the best place to get an answer. 
 

Thanks

 

James

[T-21]

James hope this is helpful    Mosquito NF-30 AI (Airborne Interception) Mk X radar (archive.org)