A Question About The USN WW2 Tri Colour Scheme.

[fightersweep]

Just a quick question regarding the WW2 USN tri colour scheme for a F4U-1a Corsair (or four colour scheme as I've been discovering online)

 

I've got a selection of paints from different brands for the Non Specular Sea Blue and Non Specular Intermediate Blue, such as Humbrol Authentics, Gloy, DBI and Tamiya and before slapping the paint on my Corsair, I just wanted to ask the question. With all the paints I have, the colours are quite dark shades and are generally close across the brands. Yet, if I look at a lot of completed builds, the Intermediate Blue looks to be more like a sky blue colour, with the Intermediate Blues I have more closely matching the colours used for the Non Specular Sea Blue upper surfaces. So as a result, I'm a bit confused.

 

Am I just looking at examples of scaled colours being used, or was there an earlier, lighter incarnation of this colour scheme? I've got one book, the Detail and Scale F4U book that does make a hint in this direction.

 

Hope this makes sense as I know very little about WW2 USN colours and I've been doing a lot of Googling only to be none the wiser. 

 

TIA 

Steve

[fishplanebeer]

Best bet is to consult the painting guide on the Sovereign Hobbies web site (makers of Colourcoats paints) as this confirms the correct colours to be used for the 3 (actually 4) colour scheme. They also stock all the correct paints that you will need, which I have bought myself for my next but one project of the 72nd scale Revell F4U-1A.

 

You have to buy a minimum of 6 tins to keep postage down but you could also add the interior green and chromate yellow as well.

 

 

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/us-navy-aircraft-colour-schemes

 

Regards

Colin.

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, fightersweep said:

Hope this makes sense as I know very little about WW2 USN colours and I've been doing a lot of Googling only to be none the wiser. 

 

in this google is not your friend.....

 

US Navy blues are poorly understood, and thus poorly represented,  beware of FS595 "matches" 

 

see here for background

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/blogs/sovereign-about-us-research-and-development/references-how-to-tell-the-good-from-the-bad

 

as a brief aside, I have the Monogram USN/USMC book, with the paint chips, and the 3 Sea Blues are much darker and greyer than model paints usually show.  (and I did spend time trying to mix them as well, which is another story)

 

If you want accurate paint out the tin, and you use enamel,  Colourcoats are the way to go.     I'd be very suspicious of any older paint brands. 

3 hours ago, fightersweep said:

I've got a selection of paints from different brands for the Non Spectacular Sea Blue and Non Spectacular Intermediate Blue, such as Humbrol Authentics, Gloy, DBI and Tamiya

I know that Tamiya Sea Blue XF-17 is way too green.  Humbrol authentics vary greatly in colour fidelity.  

 

 

Have careful read of this, 

as it has links and hopefully will explain the various details.

 

HTH, but it will probably just give you a headache! 

 

[fightersweep]

Thanks gents for the helpful info. Much appreciated.

 

@Troy Smith Once again, thanks for taking the time to supply so much info. Some interesting reading for me ahead. I've compared the Colourcoats chips to what I have in the paint stash, and the old Gloys are pretty much spot on. I used their Gloss Sea Blue on a Hellcat recently, and out of all the paints I had, that old Gloy was the best match too. I'll certainly be buying some more Colourcoats soon, but as I have these, I'll go with them for the moment. It still leaves me wondering why a lot of builds that I've seen show the blues to be way lighter, especially the Intermediate Sea Blue. In some cases looking an almost similar shade to RLM 76.

 

I've gained a lot of respect for those old Gloys recently. I've yet to find an US Interior Green ANA 611 which looks as good as their rendition which I colour matched to a unrestored Hellcat several years ago. It was pretty well spot on. Still, I'm going to have a good read up before I start applying paint. Seems there's a lot to digest, and an area I'm not too well read up on, so looking forward to being educated.

 

Steve

 

 

[alt-92]

It may help to use Non Specular <variant> Blue in search terms.

I know, not as spectacular, but at least it's the correct name

 

[fightersweep]

24 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

It may help to use Non Specular <variant> Blue in search terms.

I know, not as spectacular, but at least it's the correct name

 

 

Good point! Funny, the eyes saw Specular, and the brain typed Spectacular! That may not have helped the Google search engine. 🤣

 

(Think I'll edit the post before I get embarrassed again!)

 

Steve

[JosephLalor]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I know that Tamiya Sea Blue XF-17 is way too green.  Humbrol authentics vary greatly in colour fidelity.  

Humbrol Authentic Non Specular Sea Blue was very greenish as well.  I've wondered if it would be better considered as a response to a colour called Strata Blue.

[Dana Bell]

Hi Steve,

 

Have you chosen which individual airframe you want to model?  There are three major variations of the four-toned scheme for F4U-1As, plus a handful of minor variations - most of the schemes aren't properly identified in publications.  If you post your choice here we can toss you a few hints about what you're trying to recreate.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

 

[Seawinder]

With regard to your question about ANA 608 Intermediate Blue, going by the chips in Elliott's book (Monogram) that Troy referred to, it is neither close to any of the dark blues, nor is it a light sky blue. If you've got access to FS595, 35164 is apparently the closest match, but Elliott's chip is slightly lighter and more blue. It reads as either a grayish medium blue or a bluish medium gray. In B/W period photos of Corsairs, it looks distinctly lighter than the Non Specular Sea Blue. Of course, I bow to the much greater expertise of Dana and others.

[fightersweep]

Thanks to everyone for all the information and help so far. I really do appreciate it!

 

@Dana Bell Hi Dana! Thanks for the offer of help. Again, very much appreciated. Three variations? No wonder one can get confused! The scheme I'm planning on is Jim Streig's bird...if the profile is correct...

 

 

Cheers!

Steve

[Dana Bell]

Hi Steve,

 

I've not seen any really clear, well lit images of Streig's Corsair, but the little I've seen suggests he did fly with the 3rd camouflage variation - which is what your drawing shows.

 

Intermediate Blue was a purple-blue color; the blue pigments faded rapidly, leading to numerous complaints from the field that the paint ended up looking pink.  You've got plenty of room to plaay with the paints!  Remember that the Semi-gloss Sea Blue portions of the wings would differ between the lacquers (metal skin) and dopes (fabric), and that the fabric extended all the way to the wingtip.  The differences could be seen on brand new wings.  The Non-Specular Sea Blue leading edges didn't differ that much from the main parts of the wing, and (on Corsairs) after weathering looked more like a single shade rather than less.

 

Enjoy the build!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[fightersweep]

Thanks Dana! That's fantastic. Couldn't have wished for more. I can now get cracking on the Corsair and try to do justice to all this great information.

 

Thanks again!

 

Steve

[fishplanebeer]

Steve,

 

By coincidence the one you are planning to build is one of the two possible schemes offered with the 72nd scale Revell F4U-1A so we face a very similar challenge in due course.

 

Regards

Colin.

[fightersweep]

@fishplanebeer Hopefully you'll find the info above as helpful as I have. I haven't tried the new Revell F4U myself yet. The kit I'm building is the old Heller kit, which I'm finding to be quite a decent kit, except perhaps for the wing construction. This was going to be my last build for the recent Heller GB. I made ten builds, but couldn't quite make number eleven, but I still want to finish it off.

 

Steve

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

For my part, one of the biggest sins in modelling these schemes is overly light and overly saturated colours in place of Intermediate Blue. 

[fightersweep]

6 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

For my part, one of the biggest sins in modelling these schemes is overly light and overly saturated colours in place of Intermediate Blue. 

 

That probably explains a lot of builds I found online which subsequently confused me about the correct colours in the first place.

[JWM]

Mayabe it is not perfect, but simply - recently I am using Humbrol 77 as Sea Blue, mix of 89 and 144 (~2:1) as Intermediate and white. 

 

 

Regards

J-W

[72modeler]

@JWM,

 

Wow! What scale and kit is your PB2Y? It looks great! The PB2Y that was Admiral Nimitz's personal transport is at the National Museum of Naval Aviation at Pensacola and was recently restored and brought inside from its previous outdoor location. A very BIG flying boat and very impressive up close and personal. See two links to the preserved example; the third link is an assortment of PB2Y photos that might be of interest to others. Thanks for posting photos of your two models, both of which turned out well.

Mike

 

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/museums/nnam/explore/collections/aircraft/p/pb2y-coronado.html

 

https://www.flickriver.com/photos/10979857@N06/40719800504/

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/pb2y.html?blackwhite=1

[JWM]

2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Wow! What scale and kit is your PB2Y?

Thanks a lot! The PB2Y - this is 1/72 Mach 2 kit. Nomad is Broplan vacu conversion for Academy Catalina, also 1/72. Both are painted Humbrol 77 from top, the difference comes from the light conditions in a day, both in natural light,,,

Regards

J-W

 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

On 2/25/2021 at 6:06 AM, fightersweep said:

Yet, if I look at a lot of completed builds, the Intermediate Blue looks to be more like a sky blue colour, with the Intermediate Blues I have more closely matching the colours used for the Non Specular Sea Blue upper surfaces. So as a result, I'm a bit confused

Ive always thought Vought Intermediate blue was more grey/blue and the Grumman more skyblue if that helps. 

[Seawinder]

6 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Ive always thought Vought Intermediate blue was more grey/blue and the Grumman more skyblue if that helps. 

There's a period color photo of a Hellcat in Elliott's book. The Intermediate Blue is definitely not sky blue.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

11 minutes ago, Seawinder said:

There's a period color photo of a Hellcat in Elliott's book. The Intermediate Blue is definitely not sky blue.

Not seen the particular photograph you refer to ? But its not a bright sky-blue I'm referring to just lighter and less grey than what Vought seemed to use ? 
 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hellcat/F6F-3/pages/Grumman-F6F-3-Hellcat-lovely-color-photograph-showing-early-USN-markings-02.html

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hellcat/F6F-3/pages/Grumman-F6F-3-Hellcat-USA-colored-photo-by-Time-Life-01.html

Edited February 27, 2021 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[stevehnz]

18 hours ago, JWM said:

recently I am using Humbrol 77 as Sea Blue, mix of 89 and 144 (~2:1) as Intermediate and white. 

J-W, Hu 144 is generally considered to be a decent match for Intermediate blue, early colour photography & warbirds seem to have conditioned us to a bluer colour than it really is, I would suggest a mix of 3 pts 144 to 1 part 89 might be closer while still giving the blue effect desired

2 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Not seen the particular photograph you refer to ? But its not a bright sky-blue I'm referring to just lighter and less grey than what Vought seemed to use ? 
 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hellcat/F6F-3/pages/Grumman-F6F-3-Hellcat-lovely-color-photograph-showing-early-USN-markings-02.html

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hellcat/F6F-3/pages/Grumman-F6F-3-Hellcat-USA-colored-photo-by-Time-Life-01.html

Dennis, to my eye & possibly on my monitor, both those photos display the overly blue tinge common to early Kodak colour film, the whole tone of them appears to me to be well overly blue.

Steve.

[Aidrian]

On 2/25/2021 at 10:34 PM, Dana Bell said:

 

Intermediate Blue was a purple-blue color; the blue pigments faded rapidly, leading to numerous complaints from the field that the paint ended up looking pink.

I first came across this years ago in Dr Darby's book on the first decade of the RNZAF, but have not yet been quite brave enough to try a pink Corsair; a pink Spitfire is no problem. but a Corsair?  

 

Ultramarine pigments are lightfast when used straight, but tend to bleach very quickly when mixed with zinc oxide white; the effect is immediate and you need much less white than you think to create a lighter shade of blue.  It doesn't stop after mixing either, it's an ongoing process as the paint is no longer lightfast. (This could also be the reason for the rather light colour reported on some WWI RFC and RNAS roundels.)  Ultramarine blue and Titanium white don't behave in the same way, but since most of the worlds titanium dioxide came from Norway, supplies might have been a bit constrained.

 

The tendency of ultramarine blue paint to turn greyish is known by art curators as "ultramarine disease" or "ultramarine sickness" and is due to a photochemical reaction in the the mediium which changes it's reflectivity. Different paint chemistry behaves in different ways - linseed oil and some resins are very prone to this effect, other combinations rather less so, which might go some of the way to explaining why Grumman paint jobs didn't weather in quite the same way as the paint that Vought used.  

Edited February 27, 2021 by Aidrian

[dnl42]

10 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Not seen the particular photograph you refer to ? But its not a bright sky-blue I'm referring to just lighter and less grey than what Vought seemed to use ? 
 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hellcat/F6F-3/pages/Grumman-F6F-3-Hellcat-lovely-color-photograph-showing-early-USN-markings-02.html

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hellcat/F6F-3/pages/Grumman-F6F-3-Hellcat-USA-colored-photo-by-Time-Life-01.html

While trolling through these images--thanks Dennis!--I noticed the caption of the 2nd, which is repeated in the above URL, indicates the photo is colored.