Canadian Car and Foundry Official Photographs

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

I am trying to trace what appears to be series of official photographs of CCF Hurricanes, they have a number and date hand drawn on the print, the highest I know of is number 252 from 22 June 1942.  I sent messages to Vintage Wings and Carl Vincent in mid January but have not had any replies.

 

I am actually after the group around numbers 211 to 218 (plus or minus) which have the typewritten titles on the print <number> C.C.&F. Co. LTD. Fort William Works, Sept 18, 1941.  Foundry Building, Completed mark I fuselages in Storage.  It is a dirt floor.  The aircraft do not have tails, outer wings, engines and mostly wheels at least.  What they do have is clear markings, firstly the RAF serial and secondly a 3 digit number, which is the serials' place list of Hurricanes ordered.  For example AG340 was the 476th Hurricane ordered by the RAF from CCF.

 

There were 60 mark I stored from a range of 61 serial numbers.  I am trying to confirm the aircraft not made/stored in 1941.

[dogsbody]

Somehow and from somewhere, I downloaded this, #214, a few years ago, but I can't remember where.

 

 

I've just spent almost an hour online, looking for CC&F Hurricane production photos and can barely find any, let alone what you are looking for.

 

One photo I do have was in a collection by Ken Molson. It shows some Hurcs on a production line, but it doesn't state if it's at CC&F.

I tried looking for Molson's photo collection, but couldn't find it. Maybe you'll have better luck.

 

 

 

Chris

 

 

[ClaudioN]

8 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

I am actually after the group around numbers 211 to 218 (plus or minus) which have the typewritten titles on the print <number> C.C.&F. Co. LTD. Fort William Works, Sept 18, 1941.  Foundry Building, Completed mark I fuselages in Storage.  It is a dirt floor.  The aircraft do not have tails, outer wings, engines and mostly wheels at least.  What they do have is clear markings, firstly the RAF serial and secondly a 3 digit number, which is the serials' place list of Hurricanes ordered.  For example AG340 was the 476th Hurricane ordered by the RAF from CCF.

 

One of the pictures you are after might be the one at the bottom of this webpage http://113squadron.com/id97.htm

You probably need a better reproduction, however.

 

[dogsbody]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

 

One of the pictures you are after might be the one at the bottom of this webpage http://113squadron.com/id97.htm

You probably need a better reproduction, however.

 

 

Ah! That is the other photo I have but it isn't marked nor does it state it was at the Fort William plant.

 

 

I also have this photo, taken from a WW2 National Geographic:

 

 

 

 

More and better photos here: http://www.canadianflight.org/content/elsie-macgill

 

 

Chris

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

14 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Somehow and from somewhere, I downloaded this, #214, a few years ago, but I can't remember where.

I've just spent almost an hour online, looking for CC&F Hurricane production photos and can barely find any, let alone what you are looking for.

Thanks for looking.  Same results as me.

 

11 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

One of the pictures you are after might be the one at the bottom of this webpage http://113squadron.com/id97.htm

Yes it does look like it, more important is "All of the above pictures were taken at the Canada Car Company, Aircraft Division. Source K Crawford".  So another name to look for.

 

However "Precious few made it to the Middle East or anywhere for that matter. Sadly the politics and meddling would purposely see to it that very few of these aircraft would ever get to the areas where they were desparately needed. Partly to keep them off British soil, most were used for high risk overseas shipments and sit on the bottom of the ocean packed in the holds of ships just as you see them above.", is hyperbole.

 

The site is not being updated and they seem to have turned off the contact options.

9 hours ago, dogsbody said:

More and better photos here: http://www.canadianflight.org/content/elsie-macgill

"Completed Mk. I fuselages in storage awaiting delivery. 18 September, 1941. " is definitely one of the sequence.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Geoffrey Sinclair
113 Squadron site update.

[dogsbody]

Most CC&F built Hurricanes were delivered to Britain without engines, until the Americans got their Packard Merlin production into full swing. Even then, Canada only got a few as Britain wanted them all and was paying for them. All we got were some Kittyhawks that were diverted from British orders.

 

 

 

Chris

[StevSmar]

On 2/24/2021 at 3:53 PM, ClaudioN said:

 

One of the pictures you are after might be the one at the bottom of this webpage http://113squadron.com/id97.htm

You probably need a better reproduction, however.

 

Thanks for the link ClaudioN, I’d tried to find a contact to this website a few years ago regarding their Can-Car photos at the link above, but was unsuccessful.

 

Would anyone have contact information for one of the sites authors:

Ron Vickers - England

Charlie Walker - England

F/Sgt Gerard Brigden - France

Sgt John Reid - Australia

Sgt Keith Hansen - Tasmania

F/O Pat Woodward - England

Corp Norman Say, Duncan Say - England

W/O Jack Barnes, Peter Barnes - England

F/Lt Tony Day - Canada

Sgt Ewan Brooking - Australia

Kevin Crawford - Canada

[StevSmar]

On 2/24/2021 at 5:23 PM, dogsbody said:

 

Ah!

 

 

Quote

This image can be purchased through Canada’s Science and Technology Museum. When I contacted them shortly after COVID began everyone was working at home and they weren’t able provide high quality scans:

http://imagescn.techno-science.ca/aviation/index_choice.cfm?id=130&photoid=99737517

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by StevSmar
The iPad sucks sometimes

[StevSmar]

I collect Can-Car images as funds allow. I’d love to connect with others who have the same interest to share costs...

 

The most accessible source of Can-Car (and outer Canadian Hurricane) images that I’ve found is Canada’s Aviation and Space Museum, you can see what they have available via their image bank:

http://image-bank.techno-science.ca/collections/image_bank/

[gingerbob]

Might this be the source?

https://archivalcollections.library.mcgill.ca/index.php/photograph-albums

[StevSmar]

3 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Might this be the source?

https://archivalcollections.library.mcgill.ca/index.php/photograph-albums

There are a few hits from the search term “Hawker Hurricane”, but you’d need to visit in person to see what they are.

[Carl V]

1.         I have not contributed to this thread because I really have very little to say.

2.         Judging by my own not-particularly-exhaustive investigation, it seems extremely probable, however, that all of the official CCF Hurricane production photos which exist in various institutions across Canada and which have been referred to by various contributors to the thread are all reproduced from hard-copy images which seem to have been fairly widely distributed. Therefore, finding the precise point in time on the production line will be fortuitous. Nevertheless, stranger things have happened!

3.         One institution that does not appear to have been mentioned is the Archives of Ontario. This institution does have a collection of CCF official photos. There are not a great number of Hurricane photos but there are quite a few showing details of production. Fortunately, their index photos can be downloaded at a  comparatively usable resolution.

4.         The photo of the production line – the one showing AF984 in the foreground – shows in the original print a WRF negative number. This indicates that it is a National Film Board image from a series of about 5000 or so produced for the Wartime Information Board covering all aspects of Canadian war production. The negatives for this series are held by Library and Archives Canada. The images are theoretically available on a fairly unwieldy online finding aid. Indeed, the whole Archives online indexing has produced a deafening volume of complaints! And, of course, as I have already remarked somewhere, the actual physical archives is locked down tighter than the proverbial.

5.         Good hunting, Geoffrey!

Carl

[StevSmar]

17 minutes ago, Carl V said:

3.         One institution that does not appear to have been mentioned is the Archives of Ontario. This institution does have a collection of CCF official photos. There are not a great number of Hurricane photos but there are quite a few showing details of production. Fortunately, their index photos can be downloaded at a  comparatively usable resolution....

...Carl

Here’s the link related to their Canadian Car and Foundry collection:

http://ao.minisisinc.com/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/ARCH_DESC_FACT/FACTSDESC/REFD%2BC%2B190?SESSIONSEARCH

[dogsbody]

2 hours ago, StevSmar said:

Here’s the link related to their Canadian Car and Foundry collection:

http://ao.minisisinc.com/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/ARCH_DESC_FACT/FACTSDESC/REFD%2BC%2B190?SESSIONSEARCH

 

 

I saw this site the other day, but I couldn't get any images to show.

 

 

As Carl mentioned, there are photos from the CC&F plant but practically all of them are of Helldiver production, with only a few Hurricane pics,

 

 

 

Chris

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

I figure the best way to find out what I have missed is to report a lack of findings.

http://ao.minisisinc.com/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/ARCH_DESC_FACT/FACTSDESC/REFD%2BC%2B190?SESSIONSEARCH

page 1 Click here to see a list of record series that make up this fonds or collection
page 2 C 190-5
page 3 View an online list of these records.
page 4 Click on the camera icon.

Produced images for me, but the Hurricane ones are known.

 

Looking through the other files.

 

http://ao.minisisinc.com/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/221614688/IMAGES_WEB_ADD/IREFCODE/C~20190-2-0-0-58?JUMP

this photograph is numbered 50.

 

http://ao.minisisinc.com/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/221614727/IMAGES_WEB_ADD/IREFCODE/C~20190-5-0-0-7?JUMP

Grumman G-23, is number 74,

The November 27 1939 Maple Leaf trainer photograph is number 160,

The January 1940 photograph of the first Hurricane seems to be number 167,

Then there are all the known Hurricane ones in the 200's.

The Curtiss Helldiver prototype shots looks like they are numbers 313 to maybe 319,

and the archives for example,

 

So it looks like we have a series of photographs starting at number 1 detailing the mid/late 1930's or so onwards activity of CCF, whether from around 70 onwards they are mostly or are all aircraft is unknown.  Plus other sequences from earlier periods at least.
 

https://archivalcollections.library.mcgill.ca/index.php/photograph-albums

The titles say these seem to be mostly the company and its facilities, the sort of record/publicity of what they did and what they can do now.  And probably mostly the same as the archives.

 

It seems I can be typing away at a reply and still be timed out.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

On 26/02/2021 at 04:04, dogsbody said:

Most CC&F built Hurricanes were delivered to Britain without engines, until the Americans got their Packard Merlin production into full swing.

All CCF Hurricane mark I airframes arrived in Britain without engines.  Even after US Merlins became available of the 671 Hurricane mark II airframes that arrived in Britain 234 were fitted with an engine and in any case they were taken out and replaced by Merlin XX.

 

On 26/02/2021 at 04:04, dogsbody said:

Even then, Canada only got a few as Britain wanted them all and was paying for them. All we got were some Kittyhawks that were diverted from British orders.

For 1941/42.

 

560 Kittyhawk I August to December 1941, direct purchase order, 72 to Canada October 1941 to April 1942, replacing unavailable P-39.

1,500 P-40E-1 Lend Lease meant for the British Empire, December 1941 to June 1942, split 315 USA, 444 Empire, 708 USSR, 6 Brazil, 27 China.  Canada received 12 in April 1942.

 

30 Hurricane mark I January and February 1942, 50 Sea Hurricane mark I December 1941 and January 1942 (in theory for convoy not Canada defence), then the start of production for an order of 400 Hurricane XII in June 1942.

For a what if NA-73 Mustang, acceptances started in August 1941, with 320 by end March 1942.

[StevSmar]

13 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

...

http://ao.minisisinc.com/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/ARCH_DESC_FACT/FACTSDESC/REFD%2BC%2B190?SESSIONSEARCH

..C 190-5...

http://ao.minisisinc.com/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/221614688/IMAGES_WEB_ADD/IREFCODE/C~20190-2-0-0-58?JUMP

...this photograph is numbered 50...

http://ao.minisisinc.com/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/221614727/IMAGES_WEB_ADD/IREFCODE/C~20190-5-0-0-7?JUMP

...The January 1940 photograph of the first Hurricane seems to be number 167,

Then there are all the known Hurricane ones in the 200's....

...It seems I can be typing away at a reply and still be timed out...

The link to "C 190-5" works, but I'm not able to get results from the other links above, and get the response "No active session is assigned to the user [Start New Search Session]"

 

These are the images from fonds "C 190-5"

 

 

 

 

 

 

If there are other images, would it be possible to know the search terms/steps you used for these Hurricane images?

("...It seems I can be typing away at a reply and still be timed out..." LOL- I have the same issue sometimes)

Edited February 27, 2021 by StevSmar

[dogsbody]

Steve, I did figure out how to see those photos yesterday, in all of those C-190 files, but what you have posted above is all there is for Hurricane pictures.

 

I did find it a bit humorous that all the photos titles as North American Harvard Trainers are photos of Curtiss SB2C Helldivers.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Scooby]

On 2/24/2021 at 12:01 PM, dogsbody said:

Somehow and from somewhere, I downloaded this, #214, a few years ago, but I can't remember where.

 

You probably downloaded it from WIX (Warbird Information Exchange). There used to be a user that had a knack for finding rare and unpublished images, he definitely had these exact images and more in a CC&F thread.

 

A few years ago someone went copyright crazy on him so he deleted all the links to his images, he formed a private email group of about 12 WIX members and we had access to his server. Recently he shut that down too.

 

You can probably still find the empty thread at WIX.