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Tasca M4A1 Grizzly Guardian


Cerberus

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12 hours ago, Cerberus said:

I seem to remember someone was building a loco, with cardboard tubes, clad in metal, Vytautas could stick a face on the front for you :hmmm:;) :thumbsup:

 

Absolutely no problem! :rofl:

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Forgive me, Matt, for taking your place, but you first started it... :happy:

 

Vytautas

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  • 2 weeks later...

632ab6dc-6ebf-4a54-bcbc-a8e95a2a8c12.jpe

On 26/04/2021 at 20:52, vytautas said:

 

Absolutely no problem! :rofl:

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Forgive me, Matt, for taking your place, but you first started it... :happy:

 

Vytautas

 

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 This is on hold until winter rolls round again, simply haven't got enough time to work on two things at once, plus real life stuff, so Mr (what's the rush) Grizzly will have to wait while I work on something else...

 

M4A3%252C+M4A4+Lowered.jpg

 

 I've decided (foolishly) to have a go at this load of old nonsense, It's listed all over the internet as a cut down M4A3 (M-50) when in fact it's probably M4A4 from looking at the wheel spacing (hull length?) the internet also states that they supposedly cut 30cm (300mm) from the top of the hull, that might also be dubious, It kinda looks to me like they slotted in the cast top plate section (hatch section, with hatches) of an M4A3 in there to get the hatches behind the front plate, but anyway, there's only two pictures available, and one probably dubious measurement, plus all avenues of investigation lead to a log in screen for the IDF forum (which is invite only) soo not a lot to work with, and that's just my kinda project lol

 

 When I first saw the pictures a few years back I thought it was fake photoshop nonsense because the two pictures were from Wargaming forums, but whatever, It should be fun to have a go at, in theory, I can always turn it into some 'what if' nonsense if things go badly...

 

 ;)

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3 hours ago, Cerberus said:

 This is on hold until winter rolls round again, simply haven't got enough time to work on two things at once, plus real life stuff, so Mr (what's the rush) Grizzly will have to wait while I work on something else...

 

M4A3%252C+M4A4+Lowered.jpg

 

 I've decided (foolishly) to have a go at this load of old nonsense, It's listed all over the internet as a cut down M4A3 (M-50) when in fact it's probably M4A4 from looking at the wheel spacing (hull length?) the internet also states that they supposedly cut 30cm (300mm) from the top of the hull, that might also be dubious, It kinda looks to me like they slotted in the cast top plate section (hatch section, with hatches) of an M4A3 in there to get the hatches behind the front plate, but anyway, there's only two pictures available, and one probably dubious measurement, plus all avenues of investigation lead to a log in screen for the IDF forum (which is invite only) soo not a lot to work with, and that's just my kinda project lol

 

 When I first saw the pictures a few years back I thought it was fake photoshop nonsense because the two pictures were from Wargaming forums, but whatever, It should be fun to have a go at, in theory, I can always turn it into some 'what if' nonsense if things go badly...

 

 ;)

It’s actually a Chinese knock off of an E8....

Costs a little less that than a Chinese knock off Rolex ;) 

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4 hours ago, Cerberus said:

(hatch section, with hatches)

They look very odd indeed... I'm wondering how they open and close because when you look at an E8 they stand straight up almost vertical these are horizontal almost to the deck and appear to have the protective frame on top (for the periscopes ) in fact it looks to me like they swapped the hatches left for right and changed the way the hinges work...the hatch lid by the radio operator looks like it should be the drivers.

Gonna make a cool project though.

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7 hours ago, Cerberus said:

 This is on hold until winter rolls round again, simply haven't got enough time to work on two things at once, plus real life stuff, so Mr (what's the rush) Grizzly will have to wait while I work on something else...

 

M4A3%252C+M4A4+Lowered.jpg

 

 I've decided (foolishly) to have a go at this load of old nonsense, It's listed all over the internet as a cut down M4A3 (M-50) when in fact it's probably M4A4 from looking at the wheel spacing (hull length?) the internet also states that they supposedly cut 30cm (300mm) from the top of the hull, that might also be dubious, It kinda looks to me like they slotted in the cast top plate section (hatch section, with hatches) of an M4A3 in there to get the hatches behind the front plate, but anyway, there's only two pictures available, and one probably dubious measurement, plus all avenues of investigation lead to a log in screen for the IDF forum (which is invite only) soo not a lot to work with, and that's just my kinda project lol

 

 When I first saw the pictures a few years back I thought it was fake photoshop nonsense because the two pictures were from Wargaming forums, but whatever, It should be fun to have a go at, in theory, I can always turn it into some 'what if' nonsense if things go badly...

 

 ;)

 

Looks to be an interesting project and it will be interesting to see how you tackle this

 

   Stay safe            Roger

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6 hours ago, Longbow said:

It’s actually a Chinese knock off of an E8....

 Those pesky Chinese will copy anything yes ;)

 

5 hours ago, M3talpig said:

They look very odd indeed... I'm wondering how they open and close because when you look at an E8 they stand straight up almost vertical these are horizontal almost to the deck and appear to have the protective frame on top (for the periscopes ) in fact it looks to me like they swapped the hatches left for right and changed the way the hinges work...the hatch lid by the radio operator looks like it should be the drivers.

 The hatches and how they did the front section of the top plate is puzzling me the most at the mo, I read a segment of a post that seemed to suggest they slotted in the cast section of an M4A3E8 but the open hatches as you say don't kinda look right, I've already cut the cast hatch section out of a Tamiya Easy Eight hull top, so I'm going to have a play around with the hatches and see if I can get something that matches the pictures.

 

2 hours ago, Hamden said:

Looks to be an interesting project and it will be interesting to see how you tackle this

 Like a bull in a china shop probably, lol, I have already trashed a Tamiya upper hull, and don't want to trash anymore expensive kits, so will scratch stuff and see how it looks.

 

 

2 hours ago, Pig of the Week said:

Interesting...What nation, period / conflict, does the one in the pic purport to be from ?

 Israel (IDF) around 58,59, early 60's, never saw any conflict, only one prototype ever made, it was called Degem Yud? and they scrapped it, yes, they allegedly made the coolest looking Sherman ever made, and then scrapped it.

 

 On a plus note, I found an old thread on Armorama in which @Das Abteilung thinks it's an M4A4 hull, and not M4A3 as the internet seems to think (and let's be honest, he knows a heck of a lot more than I do about Sherman's) and I tend to think the same simply because of the wheel spacing, the hull has to be longer (I think) to get that kinda wheel spacing, plus the front plate seems to be the wrong angle for M4A3, though they might of cut that out and re-angled the plate to be fair.

 

 Dagem+Yud2.jpg

 

 This is the other picture, and it doesn't really help a lot, so I'm leaning towards a 'what if' for this due to a lack of information, maybe, I think a chopped down lowrider Sherman looks very cool indeed to be honest, and I was going to start a fresh build log on this but there's already quite a few IDF M-50/51 builds going on, so will just probably drop progress in here as and when progress actually happens...

 

 Matt

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The lower hull is an M4A4 without a shadow of a doubt because of the unique bogie spacing.  It was also the only M4 hull which didn't need the lower hull extension box at the rear for the Cummins engine or the later airflow extension of the upper hull.  Those might have been important for the cut-down engine deck.  And the remaining glacis looks more like 560 than 470

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1 hour ago, Pig of the Week said:

I'm assuming the whole point of this was to reduce the rather tall silhouette that Shermans have

Indeed so.  An idea contemplated by the US in WW2 when engines other than the radial were fitted and the driveline lowered.  The A2's diesels and A3's V8 would have permitted a lower profile but precluded continued use of the radial (and the very last Sherman off the line was a radial M4A1) and prevented use of the A4's multibank.  The idea-killer was the considerable disruption to the manufacturing supply chain of changing parts or, worse still, having 2 completely different sets of parts in production concurrently if both low and high hulls were produced concurrently.

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5 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

The lower hull is an M4A4 without a shadow of a doubt because of the unique bogie spacing.

 Thank you for confirming that Peter, that at least now gives me a starting point, M4A4 lower hull, and then just build upwards.

 

 

1 hour ago, Pig of the Week said:

I'm assuming the whole point of this was to reduce the rather tall silhouette that Shermans have

 Turns out those two pictures originated on a blog (probably Russian) in which it stated that yes the primary purpose was to lower the silhouette to more closely match that of a T-54/55, but depending on what they started with, a secondary purpose could of also been to in effect clean up the front plate (remove any shot traps) and get better crew hatches, M4A3 large hatch for instance has a very clean front plate, the hatches don't interfere with the front plate, which brings you back to T-54/55 with it's very spartan front armour plate (just a splash board, lights/guard cage and attachment points)

 

 Plus, maybe they were planning some job creation for dwarfs and midgets, are we allowed to say dwarfs and midgets anymore? I'm not sure... little people, job creation for little people, people of a short nature who are required to crew the front two seats of a crazy new lowered Sherman.

 

 Matt

 

 ;)

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4 minutes ago, Cerberus said:

a secondary purpose could of also been to in effect clean up the front plate

At least one Lebanese Firefly had a full-width applique plate fitted to the glacis in front of the drivers' hoods, effectively making a 470 hull into a 560 one.  Something like that would have been a simpler solution.

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14 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Here is the only photo of that Lebanese oddity in a tank boneyard and my attempt from another WIP thread at copying the hull armour

 That looks very good considering you only have one picture that isn't exactly very clear to work from ;)

 

 This is kinda why I tend to think that their secondary objective was to gain room (top plate length, in front of the turret ring) by moving down the angle of the front plate, which gave them more room for hatches behind the front plate, so the hull itself got shorter in height, but at the same time it got longer in terms of top plate length.

 

 Have you got any thoughts on those two front hatches on the Degem Yud Peter? I'm still kinda thinking M4A3 large hatches that have been modified so that they lay flatter once opened, but not sure.

 

 Matt

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 I'm yet to be convinced that this poor Tamiya M4A3E8 upper hull didn't die in vain, but I couldn't think of anything better to do with it than chop it up, so whatever, and I am using other parts of the kit so not a total waste I suppose, and talking of not being convinced, after doing some marking out on some hulls and looking at pictures... and measuring things, I'm not convinced about that 30cm (300mm) stuff that is talked about on the internet, but I suppose I can worry about that later, much later...

 

Tamiya+M4A3E8+Cast+Front+Section.jpg

 

 R.I.P Tamiya M4A3E8 hull top, he maybe died for a good cause, but I got sneaky feeling he didn't, but on the plus side, that little cast section with two hatches can always be used for a 'what if' type of thing, and I'm not planning on trashing anything else, so it's white card all the way...

 

 Matt

 

;)

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3 hours ago, Cerberus said:

Have you got any thoughts on those two front hatches on the Degem Yud Peter? I'm still kinda thinking M4A3 large hatches that have been modified so that they lay flatter once opened, but not sure.

Well that would certainly make more sense than using the too-small hatches from the A4.  IDF were stripping and rebuilding Shermans of all types and conditions to make suitable usable ones so there were probably spares around.  But you can't tell from that photo if they inserted a complete piece from a large hatch hull or just plated it over and cut new hatches.

 

However, there is another photo which conveniently shows the hatches open.  And they don't look like any standard Sherman hatch.  Larger even than the large hatch type and somewhat more rounded at the back, using the triangular shape around the turret ring.  Or is that just an illusion?  Another factor is turret interference.  The large hatch hinges fouled the low bustle turret, leading to the high bustle design.  A4s had LB turrets, and the M50 counterweight sat on a shelf that was the bottom face of the bustle.  So a potential problem, which could be cured by grinding or cutting away the bustle lower corners - or relocating the new hatches.  I wondered if they might be hatches from a redundant M10 (which design inspired the large hatch arrangement), but those were squarer.  So I think I'm forced to conclude that the new drivers' compartment top plate was a new design with a new hatch design produced locally.

 

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Note also the 2 jerrycan racks under the turret bustle in the top photo.

 

That's quite an early A4 hull as it still has the padded lifting rings front and back, so late 42 or early 43. There is an outside chance it might have been direct vision: you do see the odd IDF DV tank, hidden by applique plates.  Perhaps that is why this one was chosen for the conversion.  Potentially this tank is on its 4th owner now (US, UK, France, Israel) and its 3rd engine type (multibank, radial, Cummins). 1,600-odd A4s were used by the US for training before being refurbished and shipped to the UK.  Some went to France post-war where they had the A57 engine changed for the Continental radial. and later went to Israel and later the Cummins engine. Some of those then went on to Chile with another new engine and a new gun. Well travelled FrankenShermans.....

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On 15/05/2021 at 02:40, Das Abteilung said:

Larger even than the large hatch type and somewhat more rounded at the back, using the triangular shape around the turret ring.  Or is that just an illusion?

 That's what I'm puzzling over at the moment, the hatches do look a strange shape, to me they look like a kind of teardrop shape but there's a part of me that has a sneaky feeling that it might just be an illusion because of the angle at which the picture is taken and because the hatches are laid out flatter in the open position, I'm going to test this out by modifying some M4A3E8 hatches so that they lay flatter when open, and then take some pictures from a similar angle, see if it matches.

 

 

On 15/05/2021 at 02:40, Das Abteilung said:

That's quite an early A4 hull as it still has the padded lifting rings front and back, so late 42 or early 43

 A very nice RFM Sherman Vc Firefly kit has just come into my possession (birthday present from my better half, bless her) and I have a sneaky feeling that the upper hull might give me some clues as to where they made their cuts, with regards to the dubious (maybe) 30cm (300mm), plus the flat pack lower hull can be used for patterns to make a lower hull, as I have no intention of trashing any nice kits to have a go at this Degem Yud beast.

 

 Matt

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On 3/3/2021 at 10:49 PM, Cerberus said:

M4A1+Sherman+Grizzly+CDP+and+Sexton+Bogi

 

 Picture above, the eye tends to focus on that huge dinner plate CDP sprocket with it's very distinctive alternate bolt and hole detail, but if you look to the side in the white square then you start to get a very good idea as to what these big rib bogies look like, It's a very good picture for getting an idea of the size and shape of the big ribs.

 

The bogies look like the casting formers (?) were made in exactly the same way that you made your model ones.

 

Note the wear pattern on the sprocket teeth. That sprocket plate has spent some time on the other side of the tank, I reckon.

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On 3/3/2021 at 11:59 PM, Cerberus said:

All of the rocker arms (highlighted in red) need a section of plastic removed from the top in such a way that it allows the rocker arm to be snap fitted to the corresponding lug that is located deep within the bogie unit (highlighted by the red arrow) this is what allows the bogie unit to be assembled in multiple stages

 

That is a very useful tip for simple kit builders like myself who may want to mess around with suspension angles in a diorama. I did that once by completely severing the rockers at the hole which sort of worked but was a bodge involving the rockers not retaining their bend. 

 

This is one of those (almost) scratch builds that are quite inspiring and at the same time make me want to stick to assembling Tamiya kits as per the instructions. This Grizzly has a 'horrible fascination' for me. 🤣

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On 3/14/2021 at 11:00 PM, Cerberus said:

 Thanks Vytautas, It's good to hear that your enjoying the build log, I'll try and keep it enjoyable by not rambling on too much :)

 

 Matt

 

The conversation is as good as the conversion. 

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On 07/03/2022 at 09:55, Bertie Psmith said:

The bogies look like the casting formers (?) were made in exactly the same way that you made your model ones.

 The big rib bogies, which could be called Sexton bogies really, as they were mainly intended for the Sexton I think, with a 25 pounder gun, more kick, could be that the larger were intended to withstand greater recoil shock, not sure, some Sextons are fitted with the more normal bogies, maybe they did a quick change to some casting moulds for the big rib bogies, and ended up with bogies that look like they have had a quick revision to the design, I just tried to find a fairly quick way to alter the bogies in such a way that it fools the eye so to speak ;)

 

On 07/03/2022 at 10:03, Bertie Psmith said:

This is one of those (almost) scratch builds that are quite inspiring and at the same time make me want to stick to assembling Tamiya kits as per the instructions. This Grizzly has a 'horrible fascination' for me. 🤣

 Assembling kits straight from the box is proper model making Bertie, like all the good folk on here do every day, they get things finished, they paint things, completion, that kinda thing, for me personally, these kinda builds never seem to end well, Grizzly Guardian is Apocalypse Now, a trip down river to meet old Colonel Kurtz...

 

 Doubt, is the limit of all endeavours.

 

 But on a brighter note, I did do some work on this a few weeks back, not enough for an update, but it's a start, right? 🤣

 

 

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