Belgian Air Force Camouflage up to 1940

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

I strongly suspect that this question has been asked previously, but searching via the BM engine and via Google hasn't produced many tangible results. So this is by way of a four-pronged approach, three outright questions and one request for confirmation. The period I'm referring to the that in the run-up to the German occupation of Belgium. I've spent a while looking at the Belgian Wings website, but I understand that it may be undergoing "reconstruction" and not all of its content is available.

 

So:

1. What were the colours and markings of Belgian training aircraft? For instance, were the 35 or so Stampe SV4Bs delivered up to May 1940 delivered in aluminium or a specific AeM training colour scheme.
2. What was the solid dark green colour used on the upper surfaces of some AeM aircraft, such as the Gloster Gladiator? It is stated variously to be an olive green, an olive drab, and a dark green. Photographs show it as being a dark shade and apparently quite glossy.
3. Also, with regard to the Gladiators, I've seen it mentioned that they may have had blue rudders: is there any evidence for this?
4. With regard to the Hawker Hurricanes and Fairey Battles, it seems to be the consensus that these were finished in standard RAF Temperate Land Scheme colours on the upper surfaces, with aluminium-doped undersides. Is that correct. And incidentally, were there any other Belgian-operated aircraft in this scheme?

 

Many thank for any advice or pointers toward sound information  

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[Stew Dapple]

Hi Mark,

 

Can't help you with 1) but for 2) it was advised on this very forum some years ago that the colour on the Gladiators was a fifty-fifty mix of RAF Dark Green and Dark Earth. I mixed up a pot for my current Gladiator build. It looks like a slightly aged version of the WW1 colour PC10. It's the one on the left here:

 

 

RAF Dark Green and US Olive Drab all share the same origin (PC10), as I understand it. 

 

Regarding 3) I don't think I've ever seen mention of blue rudders on the Gladiators, I suspect this might be due to misinterpreting the different fall of light on a slightly deflected rudder on an aircraft in a black and white photo.

 

Regarding 4) Yes that is correct. I don't know of any other Belgian Air Force aircraft that wore these colours, but I haven't researched any further than my needs have so far taken me  

 

Hope at least some of this helps,

 

Cheers, 

 

Stew

[Heather Kay]

7 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

And incidentally, were there any other Belgian-operated aircraft in this scheme?

I'm pleased you’re asking the questions.  
 

For my part, I’ve tended to go with what was suggested in the kit box. I have used Humbrol 155 on all the builds with the "olive" or "khaki" and aluminium dope scheme - I usually work on the basis that if I’m wrong, at least I’m consistently wrong, and all models appear in similar hues when displayed together.
 

I think it’s fairly true that British designs were supplied with factory-applied RAF style camouflage on the upper surfaces. I think it’s true to say that licence-built British types were treated the same, but stand to be corrected. I know the Belgian Wings site currently doesn’t have the Fiat CR.42 images uploaded, but I seem to recall from the previous version they were supplied in Italian colours - yellow ground with two coloured mottling, just like the ones used by the Italian Air Force in the Mediterranean - and not repainted by the Belgian authorities!

[2996 Victor]

Hi Stew,

 

many thanks for this - its very helpful!

 

30 minutes ago, Stew Dapple said:

the colour on the Gladiators was a fifty-fifty mix of RAF Dark Green and Dark Earth. I mixed up a pot for my current Gladiator build. It looks like a slightly aged version of the WW1 colour PC10. It's the one on the left here:

Thank you for the pointer here. Richard A Franks in the Valiant Wings Airframe Album No.12 "The Gloster Gladiator" on page 106 quotes Dark Green, while Auntie Airfix suggests Olive Drab, hence my query.

 

32 minutes ago, Stew Dapple said:

RAF Dark Green and US Olive Drab all share the same origin (PC10), as I understand it.

I'd never before heard this, although it makes perfect sense. What colour is PC10, though (another can of worms! ).

 

33 minutes ago, Stew Dapple said:

blue rudders on the Gladiators, I suspect this might be due to misinterpreting the different fall of light on a slightly deflected rudder on an aircraft in a black and white photo.

I strongly suspect you're right. Richard Franks alludes to the possibility of blue rudders (on the same page as noted above), but rightly suggests it is impossible to tell from monochrome photographs. I thought it an interesting possibility but at the same time unlikely as, unless it were a squadron or flight identification marking, it has nothing to do with National insignia.

 

Thanks also for confirming the Hurricane and Battle colours.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Hi Heather,

 

46 minutes ago, Heather Kay said:

For my part, I’ve tended to go with what was suggested in the kit box. I have used Humbrol 155 on all the builds with the "olive" or "khaki" and aluminium dope scheme - I usually work on the basis that if I’m wrong, at least I’m consistently wrong, and all models appear in similar hues when displayed together.

Thanks, yes, that makes perfect sense and its a good approach, one I'll be following once I've settled on a colour. I was interested to know what was the consensus as the Valiant Wings book says Dark Green and Auntie says Olive Drab. Under normal circumstances, I'd be wary of taking Auntie for granted so felt I needed to ask the question!

 

46 minutes ago, Heather Kay said:

I think it’s fairly true that British designs were supplied with factory-applied RAF style camouflage on the upper surfaces. I think it’s true to say that licence-built British types were treated the same, but stand to be corrected.

Thanks also for confirming this as well. I suppose its fair to say that the Hurricanes were supplied entirely in RAF finish, as I believe Fighter Command's aircraft initially were originally aluminium-doped on their under surfaces. The RAF Battles, I believe were finished DG/DE/Night? Not that I'll be building one of those any time soon.....

 

46 minutes ago, Heather Kay said:

I know the Belgian Wings site currently doesn’t have the Fiat CR.42 images uploaded, but I seem to recall from the previous version they were supplied in Italian colours - yellow ground with two coloured mottling, just like the ones used by the Italian Air Force in the Mediterranean - and not repainted by the Belgian authorities!

This would make a great contrast to the other RAF and Olive Drab schemes on AeM aircraft! I shall look forward to seeing yours in due course  

 

Thanks again and kind regards,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Right, I'm off to watch The Flemish Farm!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[dogsbody]

All of the Gladiator photos are viewable in Belgian Wings:  

 

https://www.belgian-wings.be/gloster-gladiator

 

 

 

 

Chris

[jimmaas]

Just a couple of odd bits.....the Belgians were evidently steering away from the monotone uppersurface camouflage.   While it is true that the Hurricanes came with thir MAP camouflage, note that the Brewster 339B was ordered from the start witn a (more or less) Dark Earth/Dark Green uppersurface camouflage.   It was not a direct copy of the British scheme since those weren't even in prospect when the Belgian contract was reached (and had a pattern different from the official MAP pattern).

 

The blue rudder on Gl;adiators, I think, is an artifact of those staples of our youth, the Profile series where the Gladiator Profile shows a blue rudder, and maybe even an earlier example, since I somehow remember a blue rudder illustrated in an old RAF Flying Review.

[2996 Victor]

25 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

All of the Gladiator photos are viewable in Belgian Wings:  

 

https://www.belgian-wings.be/gloster-gladiator

 

 

 

 

Chris

Hi Chris,

 

Yes, there are some excellent photographs in that section, aren't there?

 

Apparently, there were similar groups of photographs for other types on the previous incarnation of the site, so hopefully they'll be uploaded in due course.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

14 hours ago, jimmaas said:

Just a couple of odd bits.....the Belgians were evidently steering away from the monotone uppersurface camouflage.   While it is true that the Hurricanes came with thir MAP camouflage, note that the Brewster 339B was ordered from the start witn a (more or less) Dark Earth/Dark Green uppersurface camouflage.   It was not a direct copy of the British scheme since those weren't even in prospect when the Belgian contract was reached (and had a pattern different from the official MAP pattern).

 

The blue rudder on Gl;adiators, I think, is an artifact of those staples of our youth, the Profile series where the Gladiator Profile shows a blue rudder, and maybe even an earlier example, since I somehow remember a blue rudder illustrated in an old RAF Flying Review.

 

Hi Jim,

 

That's brilliant, thanks! Interesting that the AeM was leaning toward a disruptive camouflage pattern. I've recently spotted a "what-if" model of a B339 in Belgian markings which looked the part. One wonders how different the shades were compared to MAP colours.

 

As regards the blue rudders, it does sound like one of those urban myths. I think I might seek out one of those Profile Publications even so!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[JWM]

14 hours ago, jimmaas said:

The blue rudder on Gl;adiators, I think, is an artifact of those staples of our youth, the Profile series where the Gladiator Profile shows a blue rudder, and maybe even an earlier example, since I somehow remember a blue rudder illustrated in an old RAF Flying Review.

Also the Esci declas set from 1970s showed blue rudder. I wonder what was behind it? - it was only 30 years from 1940, so like for us now 1990... Many people were still alive, who saw it by own eyes.

Regards

J-W

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by JWM

[jimmaas]

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

I've recently spotted a "what-if" model of a B339 in Belgian markings which looked the part. One wonders how different the shades were compared to MAP colours.

Actually, there were many of them, they just didn't make it to Belgium in time.  One was test flown by the Germans and found in Germany post war.  The colors appear to have been darker than standard MAP colors, and the pattern was "MAP-adjacent" but not exactl;y the same.  Most ended up in British service with the RAF and FAA in North Africa and Crete; one (AX815) even managed to wander as far afield as India, where it crashed  in October 1943. 

[2996 Victor]

9 hours ago, jimmaas said:

Actually, there were many of them, they just didn't make it to Belgium in time.  One was test flown by the Germans and found in Germany post war.  The colors appear to have been darker than standard MAP colors, and the pattern was "MAP-adjacent" but not exactl;y the same.  Most ended up in British service with the RAF and FAA in North Africa and Crete; one (AX815) even managed to wander as far afield as India, where it crashed  in October 1943.

 

Hi Jim,

many thanks for the additional info - that's fascinating and another aspect of the Buffalo's career that I previously knew nothing about. One wonders what the German test pilots thought!

Kind regards,

Mark

[JWM]

The question on blue rudder is something I'd like to comment. Personally myself is devoted to this concept, but it is because simply effect: when I first saw color profiles of Belgian Gladiators in 1970s there always were deep blue rudders displayed. Some photos really do show some different shade on rudder, like that one below (all photos for illustration purposes only taken from page https://www.belgian-wings.be/gloster-gladiator )

 

However on above "23" the angle to Sun is different for rudder and for fin itself (the rudder is a bit bend resulting in possible being darker, since sunlight come direct;y  from front).

 

 

But here on "20" (above) sun comes from left back, so no reason to explain darker hue.

 

 

 

But on some no difference between fin and rudder:

 

on above "38" even no "comet"

And here 

 

Again number "34"  is on rudder and no difference in shades...

 

The hypothesis could be that initially Gladiators had three national colors on rudder, then overpainted and therefore some has darker rudder as painted with fresh paint?

Accordingly to what is said on this web page the "20" was delivered in June 1937  and "23" in September 1937. First 15 machines were of British production (from "17" till "31")  whwres next seven ("32"-"38")came in 1938 and were of Belgian production. From "32" the number was painted on rudder, not on solid part of fin. In case of Renard R-31 the schemes from 1936 has national colors on rudder (in French or Romanian style) and in 1939 they have green rudders. So the overpainting of national colors happened in a time about entering of Gladiators into service. Therefore maybe they have other (blueish) hue of rudders, what people remembered as blue rudders.  However this nice hypothesis can be ruined by photo of Gladiators in delivery markings (small numbers behind roundels), with dark rudders.

I am sorry to find it...  

Best regards

J-W

 

[2996 Victor]

Hi @JWM,

 

many thanks for your post and thoughts, very helpful and its good to have the perspective of someone who's open to the idea of the blue rudders, at least at some point during the aircrafts' careers. At the moment, and assuming here that there were blue rudders, I'm wondering if there is a correlation between the presence of the serial number on both the fin and rudder, and the presence of the serial only once.

 

This photo of G-30 (from the Belgian Wings website) shows a marked difference in hue between the fin and rudder, where the rudder appears to be in the neutral position. Incidentally, G-30 is the Belgian subject in the Airfix kit.

 

Have you seen @Ed Russell's RFI here? Ed has offered some interesting leads which I'm hopefully following up, which led indirectly to the Hakans Flygsida website which has a page devoted to Belgian Gladiators as well.

 

Incidentally, from the Belgian Wings website, G-38 was unarmed and the personal aircraft of General Hiernaux which probably explains the lack of the comet marking.

 

With kind regards,

 

Mark

[Steben]

The "khaki" used on belgian planes is a subject I bumped on to while researching the vehicle "khaki". This was used on helmets as well. "Khaki" in France and Belgium is most of the time local vocabulary for "olive drab", which is primarily of American origin. Where British rather use khaki green or khaki drab.

The thought of mixing dark green with dark earth is regularly mentioned here in the inner circles. Given the fact I haven't found a great dark earth yet I haven't tested that. I found a ral mix that matches a lot of helmets: 2 x ral6003 + 1 x ral8027. (2 x revell 361 + 1 x revell 84). This is very close to paint found on surviving vehicles and close to Mike S his mix. Perhaps Khaki tended to vary just as olive drab did. In essence it is a brownish olive drab but lighter than the 50ties to 70ties us drabs. Close to khaki green no3.

Of all post ww1 colours I seriously think as some others it is the most pc10 like and perhaps historically connected. Belgian air force started with British planes. But pc10 is a bigger can of worms.

I found only helmets and tin cans were really flat finished. And many of those semigloss. Military Bikes in khaki (most were black) were according to directive glossy. The pictures here tend to go for the semi to full gloss.

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Steben

[ClaudioN]

On 2/24/2021 at 8:07 PM, JWM said:

But here on "20" (above) sun comes from left back, so no reason to explain darker hue.

Unless the rudder is slightly offset to starboard, in this case. No way to be sure, as the top part is hidden, just an alternative hypothesis I'd keep in mind.

[Steben]

Those Rudders "might" be the case of a different batch. I recall OD parts on US planes having the same issues. Another possibility is the difference in pigment choice to achieve the result. These might react different to the camera.

[Steben]

Credits to mr Rudi Vander Linden  for this SV-10 (rare airplane) 1934 in "khaki". Gunze H421 (RLM81) was used.

[Steben]

http://www.abbl1940.be/FIETSEN/De AB 39.htm

 

One should check this one out. It is written in Dutch.... ask info if you like. It is a AB39 general issue bike of the Belgian army. With the war starting soon, this was not fully implemented.

It is an original item with original "glossy" khaki (bikes had to be glossy). Original Fresh airplanes would have had easily this colour as well.
As any OD style colour, pictures show different hues.... But it is a fairly "lighter" brownish olive drab compared to most dark greens that are used.
Somewhere between olive drab and field drab. One sees this colour very often (but flatter) on helmets and tins of the era.
 

http://www.abbl1940.be/FIETSEN/AB 39/AB 39_rechts.jpg

 

Once can notice the dark look on the B/W picture. Just as the airplanes look dark.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Steben

[STROP]

There is no reason why the Belgian Gladiators should have had blue painted rudders; the only colors applied on the rudders were the national flag and even that was deleted when the planes got the kakhi camouflage. And blue makes no sense either in connection with the Comet Squadron, and no other aircraft type had "coloured" rudders. I do not know of any Belgian source that mentions the blue rudders, it seems definitely a (wrong) interpretation of b/w pictures. 

[Steben]

Two times khaki in different light.

[Steben]

Original 47mm ammo container. Slightly faded of course

[2996 Victor]

Hi @Steben, 

 

thanks for those great colour samples - they give a great insight and reference into the Belgian khaki colour. Brilliant, thank you!

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Blimpyboy]

On 11/26/2021 at 11:01 PM, STROP said:

There is no reason why the Belgian Gladiators should have had blue painted rudders; the only colors applied on the rudders were the national flag and even that was deleted when the planes got the kakhi camouflage. And blue makes no sense either in connection with the Comet Squadron, and no other aircraft type had "coloured" rudders. I do not know of any Belgian source that mentions the blue rudders, it seems definitely a (wrong) interpretation of b/w pictures. 

I recall similar speculation, concerning blue-painted rudders on Latvian Gladiators. I don’t remember the outcome, but I think it was misinterpretation due to light and deflection angles.

 

It would seem that overall green Gladdies are prone to this interpretation!

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Blimpyboy