P40 in Russian service- AH965 specifically

[Antb]

Howdy folks 

 

For my next project im going to have a cracking at Airfix's 48th Scale P40 Warhawk. 

 

As I like to do something a little different I'm looking at building the aircraft AH965 flown during the battle of Moscow in the Winter of 1941-42 in a white distemper camouflage scheme. 

 

My question being this: i have seen multiple drawings of this scheme online and there are 4 versions of the underside colour. These being Sky type S, brilliant Blue, White and Dupont Grey; does anyone know which of these (if any) is actually correct? 

 

Personally, I'm not too fussed but it would be nice to have an idea before I crack on. 

 

I also assume that the white would be painted over the existing camo, would this be Dark Earth, Dark Green or olive drab? 

 

I'm also planning riveting the kit as its completely bald on this front, so will be looking for some plans to see where the rivets may be. 

 

Anyway, grateful if anyone know the answer re the underside. 

 

Cheers 

[John Thompson]

The subject of paint colour subtleties on American lend-lease aircraft has been pretty thoroughly discussed, but I don't know how firm the conclusions are; try Googling:

Britmodeller Dupont paint

 

Here's a couple of hits to get you started:

 Also check out the instructions from the new Begemot P-40 in Russian service decal sheet:

http://begemotdecals.ru/doc/72-078 P-40 in USSR ins1.pdf

 

AH965 is option 3, and was delivered to Russia in RAF camouflage, so the base colours were Dark Green and Dark Brown. Read the general information on the first page for an overview of paint issues on these aircraft.

 

I hope this helps you! I'm waiting on delivery of the Begemot decal sheet, although in 1/72 scale, and I'm considering doing AH965 myself.

 

John

[Learstang]

That is a nice sheet, John! I may have to buy it. I want to do 'White 58', and I already have the Hobby Boss P-40B/C kit built up, just waiting to have its paint finished, and decalled. I do like those overall white P-40's though.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

 

P.S. I just saw they have Kuznetzov's P-40K - I must buy this decal sheet!

Edited February 23, 2021 by Learstang
Additional comment added.

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, Antb said:

My question being this: i have seen multiple drawings of this scheme online and there are 4 versions of the underside colour. These being Sky type S, brilliant Blue, White and Dupont Grey; does anyone know which of these (if any) is actually correct? 

none of the above, the Dupont is not gray,  but a cooler bluer version of Sky,  @LDSModeller has posted sample of the Dupony colors from a P-40 in New Zealand.  

put this into google

"britmodeller ldsmodeller p-40 dupont"  

I'm not finding the chips right now, but they have been posted

 

Also, have a look here, and see for your self, pics and profiles

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-40/tapani/p-40b-c/ah965camo.htm

 

Note, it was standard practice to paint out RAF markings BEFORE despatch, so this was done with RAF paint, and the red stars were UK applied too. 

 

see also

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-40/p-40.html

 

HTH

[LDSModeller]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

"britmodeller ldsmodeller p-40 dupont"  

I'm not finding the chips right now, but they have been posted

Per Troy's comments above, I have retaken photos of my Swatches

Caveat - note this was done around 1800 Hours New Zealand Daylight savings time.

These were taken in two different afternoon light settings.

The Lower Colour DuPont 71-021 Sky Type S - Grey, is not a Grey colour at all - Though there will be people

on the Net/Forums (who actually have never seen the colour in person) will tell you its a Grey.........

 

If you look at the Lower Colour in Mid Day light, the Pale Blue really stands out, whereas in the later light the green

is more prominent

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Antb

For drawings of Tomahawk Mk.IIa or any other version of P-40 for that matter, check this web page. Cheers

Jure

 

[Buz]

I do believe that the Under colours of the Tomahawks were a little greyer than the P-40E-1 paint shown above (certainly not as blue as shown in the decal sheet). If this is a paint issue, the fact that the fabric changes the colour slightly or some other reason I don't know - but for Tomahawks the colour is certainly closer to the Dupont colours than people believe. (Later E-1's are far more fun playing with the colours and far more varied).

 

Top colours are as suggested Dupont Dark Green and Dark Earth, with Russian paints used to over paint the markings.

 

Buz

Edited February 23, 2021 by Buz

[Antb]

Crikey. I wasn't expecting so much information, thanks everyone. 

 

@Troy Smith really interesting stuff especially that the markings were painted on before they got shipped across. 

 

4 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello, Antb

For drawings of Tomahawk Mk.IIa or any other version of P-40 for that matter, check this web page. Cheers

Jure

 

Jure, these are superb and just what I'm after, thank you!

 

Thanks everyone, certainly some food for thought!! 

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Buz said:

with Russian paints used to over paint the markings.

From what I have seen,  it was standard practice for Lend Lease from the UK to have RAF markings overpainted WITH BRITISH PAINT and red stars applied before dispatch, as usually was the case with US Lend Lease.  

 

seen here in Abadan, Iran, 1943

 

spitfire roundel paint out Abadan 43 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Another spotting point/indicator, the British applied Red stars in standard RAF positions, fuselage, lowerwing, upperwing, while VVS standard was fuselage, lower wing and tail fin.

 

In the case of the P-40's here,  use of MAP Dark Green/Dark Earth/Sky over Dupont Dark Green/Dark Earth/Sky Grey will show as SLIGHTLY different colour, which is what is seen on AH965

 

 

 

 

There are colour photos of a recovered ex-RAF Airacobra where the underwing roundels have been painted out with black, so the paint out may not always be a good match but it's not Soviet. 

 

I'd be very interested to see documented examples of ex RAF types supplied with RAF roundels

 

HTH

[Buz]

Troy

 

100% agree on aircraft going through Iran being repainted with RAF colours (based on the photos - however not my scope of expertise), however the Tomahawks were all sent (apart from the AN serialed aircraft - which went direct from the US) from the UK.

 

These aircraft were spread around the country before they were identified and sent to Russia. Some were at Cunliffe Owen (possibly getting mods - AH965 being one of these), at Scottish Aviation (may also be for mods). Some were at units such as 1SAC and 4 AACU, whilst others went from Maintenance Units (8MU, 39MU, and 46MU to name a few). As far as is known these were identified and sent very quickly (according to the National Archives files), and there have been some photos showing the aircraft at 27 ZAP being erected with RAF markings on them (I wish I got copies at the time).

 

There are quite a number of photos showing a distinct difference between the paint colours on Russian aircraft which gives far too much contrast to be British paints (and not all had the White fuselage band painted out such as AH975 at NII-VVS) as well as one shown in a photo that shows AH965 in winter distemper that has the under wing roundel painted out in white.    IIRC one of the P-40C wrecks showed Russian paint used to over paint, and a couple of wrecks seem to indicate the use of Russia paint over the markings. I'm sure more will come to light as more wrecks are found (and they are being found), but until then I believe that based on what limited data is available I would lean towards the direct Russian equivalent paint would be your best choice (for Tomahawks only - rest is outside my knowledge).

 

Buz

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Buz