B29 question

[feoffee2]

Hi am looking at buying the academy B29 in Old battler markings however I wondered what the difference between this kit and the Enola Gay kit they do as I was hoping to do one of the silverplate B29s. 

Thanks 

 

[tmeyer]

Unfortunately, the Old Battler kit doesn't include the sprue with the different props and the atomic bomb for either Enola Gay or Bock's Car.  At least it has the turret blanking plates.

 

Sorry...

 

Tom

[busnproplinerfan]

I have the old battler kit, I'm doing mine as Doc. I also have spare parts from one I turned into an Argus.

[fishplanebeer]

I also have this kit and it could quite easily represent a standard B-29A  in silver/natural finish as Enola Gay and Bocks Car had quite specific mods for obvious reasons.

 

Mine is well down my to do list as it's a pretty detailed kit despite its age and will take quite a while to build, especially if you model with the bomb doors open to show the 32 individual bombs!

 

Regards

Colin.

[feoffee2]

Thanks for the replies. I would probably be doing the bomb bay doors closed. So it would just be the propellers that are different then? What exactly are the differences in the props from a normal b29. 

Thanks 

[WrathofAtlantis]

Silverplate props are curtiss electric with rubber cuffs. They are unique to B-29s, and hugely different to Hamiltons. They are a prerequisite to any Silverplate bomber. The Monogram ones are way too skinny, and have 1;32 scale hubs... The blades were quite broad.

 

 B-29A differences (including all Silverplate) are quite massive to a regular B-29:  

 

  6 inch wide visible wingroot stubs at wingroot, on which wings were mounted (regular B-29s had the fuselage straddle pre-assembled full span wings instead, no stubs), meaning one more foot of wingspan for B-29A...

 

  Wingroot stubs needed a massive 15 foot long canoe shaped fairing covering the wingroot (underside only), either to cover the wingroot stub bolts, or to "smooth out" the "kink" from using wingroot stubs extensions with no dihedral, to which is attached a wing WITH dihedral...: This fairing is an absolutely massive item that I have never seen depicted in any kit, certainly not the Monogram, and this means no kit that I know of can be built as a Silverplate, or even as a B-29A...

 

  Maybe a kit has the bottom wing root fairing (doubtful) but, if moulded-in, it would preclude making any regular B-29... It is complex to blend-in, and would be very hard to make as a separate part.

 

 To replicate this giant fairing in putty is feasible, but it would be a massive undertaking, and even more extreme due to the metal finish. I have never seen it done, and I know of no AM that even attempted to offer this, strangely enough.

 

  One should keep in mind that when B-29s were used for firebombing at low altitudes, the removal of all the armament except two tail guns was just that: Removal of guns(!). All the massive turrets remained in place, with empty holes where the barrels would be... The only non-Silverplate WWII B-29s to remove the turrets were the Hump hopping fuel tankers, often early ones in camo. Maybe a few Allied ones did as well, like the RAF Washingtons, or experimental ones, but that would be mostly post-WWII. The turret removal issue is important, as the turrets are hard for kits makers to get right, particularly their turret base fairings.

Edited February 23, 2021 by WrathofAtlantis

[feoffee2]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. 

[EwenS]

10 hours ago, WrathofAtlantis said:

........The only non-Silverplate WWII B-29s to remove the turrets were the Hump hopping fuel tankers, often early ones in camo. Maybe a few Allied ones did as well, like the RAF Washingtons, or experimental ones, but that would be mostly post-WWII. The turret removal issue is important, as the turrets are hard for kits makers to get right, particularly their turret base fairings.

 

Not true.

 

311 B-29B were built at the Bell Atlanta plant, interspersed on the production line with normal B-29, between January and September 1945. These were built with only the tail turret fitted along with the automatic AN/APG-15 radar control system.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b29_5.html

 

In WW2 most of this model went to the 4 bomb groups (16th, 331st, 501st and 502nd BG) in the 315th Bomb Wing based at Northwest Field, Guam from mid-April 1945. After the usual practice raids against Japanese occupied Pacific islands, they flew their first, of 15, combat missions over Japan on 26th June and their last on 14th August 1945. Most of the 315th BW B-29B were equipped with the AN/APQ-7 Eagle Radar (a large fixed aerofoil shaped aerial under the fuselage). The Wing was dedicated to pin point targeting of Japan’s oil facilities using the then advanced Eagle radar.

 

There is a website dedicated to the 315th BW here:-

https://www.315bw.org

 

There are details of individual aircraft flown and photos.

[feoffee2]

Just a further question. With regards to the propellers used on the atomic bombers. Were these off other aircraft from the time? Are they available in 1/72 as parts? 

Thanks 

[72modeler]

2 hours ago, feoffee2 said:

With regards to the propellers used on the atomic bombers. Were these off other aircraft from the time?

Doubtful, as IIRC, the B-29  props were 17 feet in diameter, and maybe only the PBM-5 Mariner used the same diameter prop, but the blade profile was not the same. In addition, IIRC the Curtiss Electric props fitted to the Silverplate bombers at the Martin factory were reversible and had cuffs fitted for increased cooling, whereas the Hamilton Std. props did not have either feature.  BTW, Martin built 57 Silverplate B-29's and Boeing built 8. If you want to read a detailed history of every Silverplate B-29, the factory modifications, and photos, get a copy of The Silverplate Bombers: A History and Registry of the Enola Gay and other B-29's Configured to Carry the Atomic Bomb, by RH Campbell- 

Mike

[WrathofAtlantis]

On 24/02/2021 at 03:50, EwenS said:

 

Not true.

 

311 B-29B were built at the Bell Atlanta plant, interspersed on the production line with normal B-29, between January and September 1945. These were built with only the tail turret fitted along with the automatic AN/APG-15 radar control system.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b29_5.html

 

In WW2 most of this model went to the 4 bomb groups (16th, 331st, 501st and 502nd BG) in the 315th Bomb Wing based at Northwest Field, Guam from mid-April 1945. After the usual practice raids against Japanese occupied Pacific islands, they flew their first, of 15, combat missions over Japan on 26th June and their last on 14th August 1945. Most of the 315th BW B-29B were equipped with the AN/APQ-7 Eagle Radar (a large fixed aerofoil shaped aerial under the fuselage). The Wing was dedicated to pin point targeting of Japan’s oil facilities using the then advanced Eagle radar.

 

There is a website dedicated to the 315th BW here:-

https://www.315bw.org

 

There are details of individual aircraft flown and photos.

 

Very interesting. Thank you. I stand corrected. These would still be relatively uncommon and I would love to see some schemes.

 

  In any case these were Bs, so they had a huge underwing wingroot airfoil fairing for which we have no kit depiction (afaik), certainly not in 1:48, or even AM correction sets. This in a naked metal finish to boot...

Edited March 5, 2021 by WrathofAtlantis

[EwenS]

Depends what you mean by uncommon.

 

1 BW comprising 4 BG each comprising 3 BS with 15 aircraft each as normal unit equipment = 180 aircraft plus of course any replacements for losses along the way. In reality more aircraft may have been carried by the Groups. For its final mission in Aug 1945 the 315th BW dispatched 141 aircraft. They began to pick up brand new B-29B aircraft from the factory in March 1945 with which they deployed to the Pacific. So given the numbers not “uncommon”.

 

But that is out of 900+ B-29 based in the Marianas around that time in 5 Bomb Wings of the 20th Air Force. And that does not include the 8th AF units that were beginning to arrive on Okinawa as the war ended, which had yet to fly a mission.

 

If you are looking for a different paint scheme some aircraft had gloss black undersides. I’m sure you will find some photos over on the 315th site.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

B-29B production by month

17 Jan-45
49 Feb-45
56 Mar-45
61 Apr-45
35 May-45
38 Jun-45
22 Jul-45
24 Aug-45
9 Sep-45

 

Bell built 1 B-29 in February 1945, then 0 in both March and April.  May to September production was 123 B-29 to 128 B-29B

[EwenS]

Thanks for the production data. So Jan-Apr = 183 or enough to equip the whole of the 315th BW. Production in March & April clearly targeting at generating enough aircraft for them.

[72modeler]

17 hours ago, WrathofAtlantis said:

These were built with only the tail turret fitted along with the automatic AN/APG-15 radar control system.

True, but they were not Silverplate B-29's, which were dedicated a-bomb carriers. The B-29B Superforts you mentioned I believe were  just factory-built aircraft that mirrored the modifications  that Curtis LeMay  made to his B-29's in theater for increased range and payload.

Mike

[EwenS]

9 hours ago, 72modeler said:

True, but they were not Silverplate B-29's, which were dedicated a-bomb carriers. The B-29B Superforts you mentioned I believe were  just factory-built aircraft that mirrored the modifications  that Curtis LeMay  made to his B-29's in theater for increased range and payload.

Mike

 

The armament modifications LeMay ordered were the removal of the guns, ammunition and the three gunners from the B29s at a weight saving of some 2,700lbs. The turrets themselves and the related sighting equipment and blisters remained in place as noted by WrathofAtlantis in post #6 above. It is not even clear if this was carried out by all the units concerned.

 

The B-29B aircraft deleted the whole turret assembly and any supporting easily removeable turret structure, gunners positions, most armour and blisters so saving further weight, just like the Silverplates. A single fully loaded turret weighed 1,350lbs (1,938lbs for the upper forward turret). There were other minor chages to the engine baffles and radio fit and internals. The blisters and turret openings were replaced with smooth covers. A third 0.5" MG was added to the tail turret along with the AN/APG-15 gun laying radar. At least one aircraft (Fluffy Fuz III specially built for General Armstrong, CO of the 315th BW which arrived in the Marianas on 28th May 1945 as noted on the 315th BW site but unfortunately without a serial no.) even got the fuel injected engines and reversible pitch propellors of the Silverplate aircraft.

 

So the B-29B has some of the external features of the Silverplates if not the modified bomb bays for carriage of atomic weapons.

[WrathofAtlantis]

Was the large underwing fairing common to all Bs, or just a silverplate feature?

 

 How does a production of 183 adds up to 311 turretless B-29Bs? Where the rest post war production?

[EwenS]

18 hours ago, WrathofAtlantis said:

Was the large underwing fairing common to all Bs, or just a silverplate feature?

 

 How does a production of 183 adds up to 311 turretless B-29Bs? Where the rest post war production?

 

By the “large underwing fairing” I assume you are referring to the wing shaped aerial for the AN/APQ-7 Eagle radar carried under the centre fuselage. That aerial was a feature of all B-29B aircraft. Silverplate  B-29 aircraft were not equipped with AN/APQ-7.

 

But AN/APQ-7 also appeared on other aircraft. There were installations on B-24 aircraft for trials with the 8th Air Force in Britain in 1944/45 and for training radar operators in the USA.

 

AN/APQ-7 also appeared on some ordinary B-29 aircraft (i.e. B-29 that retained all the turrets). AIUI there was a unit destined for service with the 8th Air Force (8th AF “moved” from Britain to the Pacific in July 1945) on Okinawa from late 1945 that was supposed to get these. I came across a photo of one of these in Vol 1 of the Detail & Scale books on the B-29. I’ve not got access to that book just now so can’t confirm which unit, but it was probably one of the following Bomb Groups - 333rd or 346th or less likely the 382nd or 383rd.

 

As for the production numbers the full monthly listing was given by Geoffrey Sinclair in the post #13 above (the one above my own highlighting the 183 figure). I was merely pointing out that there were enough B-29B models produced in Jan-Apr 1945 to fully equip the 315th BW before its constituent units left for the Pacific thereby refuting your suggestion the B-29B was “uncommon”.

 

Edit:- Just checked Detail & Scale B-29 Vol 1 Page 28. It has three photos of late war B-29-BA aircraft built by Bell Atlanta (i.e. with all the turrets) with AN/APQ-7 Eagle radar and AN/APG-15 gun laying radar in the tail. According to the caption these were planned for all 4 Bomb Groups in the 316 Bomb Wing to be based on Okinawa i.e. as I noted above the 333rd, 346th, 382nd and 383rd Bomb Groups.

http://www.alternatewars.com/WW2/Downfall/OOB/8_AF.htm

 

The 333rd BG began arriving on Okinawa on 5th Aug and the 346th on 7 Aug 1945. The ground echelons of the other two groups reached the Marianas at the beginning of Sept 1945 but their aircraft do not seem to have left the USA.

Edited March 9, 2021 by EwenS

[WrathofAtlantis]

On 09/03/2021 at 03:53, EwenS said:

 

By the “large underwing fairing” I assume you are referring to the wing shaped aerial for the AN/APQ-7 Eagle radar carried under the centre fuselage. That aerial was a feature of all B-29B aircraft. Silverplate  B-29 aircraft were not equipped with AN/APQ-7.

 

 

 

   No! The large underwing fairing is a wingroot fairing, to smooth over the airflow from the B variant wing stubs.

 

  The B-29B, not the B-29,  had different wing attachments that made it 1 foot wider in wingspan, and this was from 6 inch wing root stubs at each wing root. I presume the huge underwing wing root fairing, which is described in the Squadron Walk Around, and shown in one photo, is to smooth over the wing root stubs: No kit ever attempted the depiction of this massive feature, afaik, but curiously enough, the Monogram does have the wing stubs as attachment points(!), but without the underside fairing, and with a wing span slightly too short even for the regular B-29 (not to mention a fuselage also 1 foot short, 98 ft not 99)...

 

  I assumed most Bs had turrets, and that turretless versions were only for the 180 or so Bs you mentionned.... All Bs had no turrets? That is interesting... I also assumed the B wing root stubs were from attaching the wings separately without hoisting up the fuselage, while a regular B-29 was assembled as a hoisted fuselage lowered unto a fully assembled central spar going out to both outer nacelles: Hence no need for wing root stubs, and a one foot shorter span.

Edited March 15, 2021 by WrathofAtlantis

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, WrathofAtlantis said:

 

   No! The large underwing fairing is a wingroot fairing, to smooth over the airflow from the B variant wing stubs.

 

  The B-29B, not the B-29,  had different wing attachments that made it 1 foot wider in wingspan, and this was from 6 inch wing root stubs at each wing root. I presume the huge underwing wing root fairing, which is described in the Squadron Walk Around, and shown in one photo, is to smooth over the wing root stubs: No kit ever attempted the depiction of this massive feature, afaik, but curiously enough, the Monogram does have the wing stubs as attachment points(!), but without the underside fairing, and with a wing span slightly too short even for the regular B-29 (not to mention a fuselage also 1 foot short, 98 ft not 99)...

 

  I assumed most Bs had turrets, and that turretless versions were only for the 180 or so Bs you mentionned.... All Bs had no turrets? That is interesting... I also assumed the B wing root stubs were from attaching the wings separately without hoisting up the fuselage, while a regular B-29 was assembled as a hoisted fuselage lowered unto a fully assembled central spar going out to both outer nacelles: Hence no need for wing root stubs, and a one foot shorter span.

 

You have the various B-29 versions muddled up. There were 3 models of B-29 serving in WW2 not 2. There was the original B-29 + the B-29A + the B-29B.

 

It was the B-29A that had the short stub wing roots. All of these were built at the Boeing Renton plant. IIRC it had something to do with the arrangement of the factory. Whether the wingspan increased or not I’m not clear about. I have sources that state both yes and no and which specifically deny the extra wingspan. I’ve never dug into resolving that issue. Other than the wing construction they were generally identical to the B-29 coming off the production lines at the Boeing Wichita, Bell Atlanta and Martin Omaha plants. Details of the B-29A with serials are here.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b29_4.html

 

The B-29B was a version unique to Bell Atlanta with the features I outlined above ie no turrets etc. The Bell Atlanta plant built both B-29 and B-29B on the same production line.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b29_5.html

 

Info on B-29 is here http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b29.html

 

[72modeler]

I had the  website linked below in my reference library that might be useful or informative to those in this discussion topic. Regarding the wing issue, according to the written sources I have, including the William Wolf B-29 book; all three Sq/Signal In Actions on the B-29, and the Sq/Signal walk around on the B-29, only the 1.119 B-29's that were produced at the Boeing Renton plant were B-29A's and had the modified center section assembly that gave a 12-inch greater wingspan; all other B-29's had the  center section that had the inner wing sections included as a one piece unit. The B-29A's had a center section that had a short stub attached, which protruded a short distance proud of the fuselage, to which the inner sections were than bolted, which produced the slightly longer wingspan. As for the wing root fairing described above, I did see the photos mentioned, and I'm not sure if the term 'gigantic' really applies; it was noted that this fairing was fitted early in production and was later deleted in production. Not sure I ever really noticed that fairing before, so thanks @WrathofAtlantis for bringing that little  detail to our attention. Plus, it's hard to find good photos that show that area of the wingroot clearly for any version of the B-29. 

Mike

 

https://www.b29-superfortress.com/b29-superfortress-design-development-models.htm

[WrathofAtlantis]

 

  Great! I realize now I was muddling up the B-29A with the B...

 

  I do vaguely remember that the B was derived only from the A, which is why I conflated both variants..

 

  As to the wingroot difference, the wing root fairing is visible in the Squadron Signal Walk Around, with the difference in wing construction explained; B-29As and B-29s were in no way identical... (the wing root fairing looked at least 15 foot long, so it was not small)

Edited March 15, 2021 by WrathofAtlantis

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

12 hours ago, 72modeler said:

https://www.b29-superfortress.com/b29-superfortress-design-development-models.htm

For what it is worth I found production to be 1,119 B-29A and 2,513 B-29 (1,620 Boeing Wichita, 357 Bell, 536 Martin), not 1,122 and 2,537.

 

The Bell and Martin lines were shut down in September 1945, Wichita in October.  Renton built no B-29A in October 1945 but then continued low level production until June 1946, with 7 built in November and December 1945, and 62 in 1946.