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Special High Altitude Spitfires


M20gull

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A copy of Classic Warbirds No. 12 The Anzacs has arrived.  There are three photos of special Mk IX Spitfires in the biography of Jeff West:

  • JK980 in the photo that I have already linked to
  • A close up shot of the pilot in the cockpit which shows very little of the aircraft but could be JK980 again
  • A photo identified by the pilot as being EN399 in a completely unpainted scheme with no serials either. It is in use as it is plugged in, with the cockpit open. The photo is from three-quarters behind so armament can not be confirmed.

All three are described as Aboukir 1944.  I would have thought 1943 made more sense as these aircraft were flown by West when he was with 80 Squadron.  I think I need to track down a copy of Spitfires and Spots, the book by West’s grandson.

Edited by M20gull
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I know this is not Spitfires but...

 

I am still looking for the Hurricane squadron that tried to intercept the Ju 86 in Bing Cross's book.  I am now on 1 SAAF.  First page I look at:  Two pilots remain at Edku with our "special machine".  This is their lucky Hurricane with 4 interceptions.  8 of the guns are removed leaving two in each wing, some armour plating and the air filter also removed.  On a scramble on 6.6.42 the sector controller measures them at 39,000ft.  The next page: two more with B Flight at El Gamil. 

 

They spend June trying to reach high-flying recco aircraft without success, arguing with AHQ as to what type they are.  80 Squadron is involved with their own high-fliers and the role passes to 94 Squadron.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think it is time I moved on from this subject or I am never going to get a model finished.  Regarding my list of questions, this is where I have got to:

  1. Are there any other flights that I have missed? I have not found any. High altitude threats were not present elsewhere.  I suppose I could count some of the Mk VI/VII flights but they are not really what I am looking for.
  2. What about the High Altitude Flight at Boscombe Down?  Rafweb confirms that there was a flight there but I have no further details.  I know it was connected with contrails.  I did look at what Spitfires were based at Boscombe and nothing leaps out except for one aircraft that is used to test windscreen heating to reduce misting. This was a problem that Galitzine faced in the slipstream of a Ju86.  That might also explain the extra pipe on BR114’s exhaust.
  3. And the one at Bari? I cannot find anything about this other than the mention in the report.  None of the units on the rafweb list look like they might host a high altitude.flight but the 1SAAF detachment is close by.
  4. Are there any aircraft I have missed? I have not found any more anywhere.
  5. Or photos? No
  6. Is there an additional data source for the 1943 Mk IXs in Italy? I have not found any
  7. Were the Ju86s in the Middle East R1s or P2s? I think they were probably R1s given the ceiling they were able to keep. That might also explain why they were hard to identify.
  8. Is there an answer to the Bing Cross questions: 252 wing? 219 group? 274 squadron?  I think Bing is just mistaken.  When he comes to it in April 1942 it is still 252 wing and becomes 219 group while he is in charge in December. The Hurricane squadron is not 274 but could be 1 SAAF or 80.
  9. Where does BS354 fit in?  I still have not found this one.
  10. Did BS343 have a role? It seems a bit rough to ship it all that way for spares but they would have been needed. No role that I can find.
  11. Were Mk VIIs ever modified in squadron service as suggested by Alfred Price? 124 Squadron did continue with “SS” flights after the move from Northolt.  This is not mentioned in 124’s ORBs.  I might have a look at the other VII squadrons to see.
  12. Is there any more biography for Reynolds or Gold? I cannot find any.  Reynolds in particular is hard to find more on.
  13. Is there any more information on Jimmy Nelson’s Mosquito accident? I have looked on the Mosquito serials database and the Hampshire air accident website. Nothing obvious leaps out.
  14. What is an FIXT?  MA399 is given this description in Spitfire the History along with 16 others.  Is it really a tropical F Mk IX?  Nothing has come up. I’m not sure what mods you would make to tropicalise a IX.
  15. What did Crosby & Co do for the tropical Mk Vs?  The company is mentioned on 63 entries in the production database, all Malta or Middle East Vbs and Vcs.   Nothing else has come up, my best guess would be something like fabrication of the Vokes filter housing.
  16. What is standard camo for Middle East from 1943? I added this because of a discussion about the colours used by the squadrons providing convoy protection after May1943.  I can see that desert colours would not be most suitable for convoy work but have not seen any reference to another scheme. I know there are IXs operating in the desert in desert scheme but most of those arriving through Casablanca were intended for Italy and should in day fighter scheme.  Of course this does not preclude a local scheme being devised by Aboukir!
  17. Which is the third Northolt IX? Cannot be sure but I think I have changed to the view that BS274 was the third one but got diverted to the testing role.
  18. Were any of the other Northolt aircraft apart from BS273 modified? I have seen no evidence of this apart from the development work on AB450
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I did have an objective of choosing a different model after completing the NMF IXs.  There are going to be three:

  • BR114 in its early form with an overall pale blue as in the Aeroplane Spotter article
  • a speculative FRVI, BS106 in dark blue with oblique camera
  • AB450 in the test pattern, PRU over Dark Sky

so a V, VI and Vii

 

then maybe a speculative IX from the Italian flight in high altitude.

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Using the online listings,

 

MA357 was a mark Vc with Merlin 50 "CRD R-RH Cv LFIX M66 2-6-43 M65 Special install 19-3-44 used by R-R for extensive filtration tests of various Vokes air filters. One was standardised on Type 378 Spit FIXT 58MU 4-12-46 SOC 12-12-46"

 

EN253 reported to have been converted to mark IXT Benson 4 January 1943, shipped 19 February 1943.

 

17 mark IXT between LZ836 and MA533 reported built by Castle Bromwich April/June 1943, all shipped to Casablanca June/July 1943.

 

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/supermarine-type-designations.1541/

 

The standard references tend to report the mark VIII was effectively tropicalised as standard, but versus the IX the only obvious visible part being the longer carburettor intake,

 

 

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18 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Using the online listings,

 

MA357 was a mark Vc with Merlin 50 "CRD R-RH Cv LFIX M66 2-6-43 M65 Special install 19-3-44 used by R-R for extensive filtration tests of various Vokes air filters. One was standardised on Type 378 Spit FIXT 58MU 4-12-46 SOC 12-12-46"

 

EN253 reported to have been converted to mark IXT Benson 4 January 1943, shipped 19 February 1943.

 

17 mark IXT between LZ836 and MA533 reported built by Castle Bromwich April/June 1943, all shipped to Casablanca June/July 1943.

 

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/supermarine-type-designations.1541/

 

The standard references tend to report the mark VIII was effectively tropicalised as standard, but versus the IX the only obvious visible part being the longer carburettor intake,

 

 

This seems to raise more questions! If MA357 was used to standardise the FIXT how come EN253 and some others described as FIXTs pre-date MA357? 

 

In Spitfire the History the chapter on Mk IXs is headed Type 361/378 and although the documentation for 361 is discussed the Type 378 is not to be found in the text. So what is the Type 378? In the secretprojects link it is described as F IX but I cannot find any other references.

 

I had spotted the FIXT reference in MA399 but foolishly had not noticed that one of the specials, MA504 is also a FIXT.

 

There is a reference in Spitfire the History to testing at Vickers in December 1942 comparing the IX temperate and VIII tropical filter. The tropical VIII (Type 360) has different filter elements in the temperate intake. I think I had assumed that the same might apply to the IX but I cannot find confirmation.

Edited by M20gull
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  • 2 weeks later...

The Pierre Clostermann topic prompted me to do some more looking at Mk VIIs.

 

“The Big Show” claims that when they arrived in the Orkneys 602’s fitters removed the machine guns leaving only the cannons, which is consistent with the suggestion referenced by Alfred Price (my question 11). Of course Price may have been relying on Clostemann’s account, though we know how reliable some of that detail is.  When 602 arrive at Skeabrae in January 1944 the station has four VIIs allocated. Three early ones (MB763, MB765 and MB828) which arrived in August and were initially allocated to 312 Squadron but get transferred to the station flight on 8 November. The fourth is the photographed MD114. The photo of MD114 is from behind so it is not possible to confirm either way but of course it could be from before 602’s arrival.  Three more are added during February and March: MD118, MD122 and MD138.

 

And to contradict it, Blair’s account here confirms the use of 0.303” rounds.  So still an open question.

 

I’m glad I looked at this as it prompted me with something obvious. SF stands for Station Flight so aircraft allocated to “SF Northolt” does not necessarily indicate anything special.

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  • 1 month later...

Q7. Were the Ju86s in the Middle East R1s or P2s? My previous comment "I think they were probably R1s given the ceiling they were able to keep. That might also explain why they were hard to identify."

 

This link on weaponsandwarfare.com suggests that the answer is probably "both".  Initially 4 86s were transferred to Crete in June 1942 which would be P2s.  This core group was gradually whittled down to zero by Sept 1943 (according to this link)..  Two more 86s arrived in April 1944 which could well have been the R1s.  The weaponsandwarfare page is not consistent about the types.

 

This RS Models kit has the P2 4U+1K which was (according to this link) the aircraft shot down in July 1943.  And there's one avaiable on eBay!  Normally I only model Spitfires but I have previously made an exception for a V1...  No, there's not room in my display cabinet.

 

 

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On 08/03/2021 at 10:34, Ed Russell said:

High Altitude scheme but engaged in low level ground support role. Despite 451's having some of its Spitfires in HA camouflage, that wasn't their main task - here's a quote from a comtemporary pilot's story -

I then flew to Corsica and 451 Squadron which was now under the command of the U.S. Tactical Air force who were flying "Liberator" bombers which were attacking bridges being used by the retreating Germans.

For the next 4 months we escorted them to their targets and as well our job was to do low level strafing on all forms of transport. In that period we destroyed or damaged 427 trucks including troop transports, 7 locomotives and 7 ships attacked. We also shot down 12 aircraft and destroyed many on the ground

 

On 07/03/2021 at 17:55, Graham Boak said:

There are photos of an Aussie sq in the MR with Mk.IXs in the HA scheme with Aboukir filters.  They have appeared on this forum, possibly a while ago.

 

On 07/03/2021 at 18:12, M20gull said:

Q1 Are there any other flights that I have missed?

 

I now wonder whether I have overlooked some modified SHFs hiding in plain sight on this topic!  I think when this first came up I convinced myself that the modification was just a paint scheme as the planes were used for low level work in Corsica.  Obviously the high altitude scheme makes no tactical sense in that scenario.   451's ORBs during this period are pretty hard to read in the digital versions but I reckon that the IXs were used in Egypt early in 1944 for interceptions before the move to Corsica.  Then the possibility of modifications for high altitude work make more sense, along with the tropical filter and the high altitude scheme.

 

This topic includes a photo showing a line of 451 IXs and I can see four that have the red/blue fin stripes.  The nearest, MA466, is well represented in modelling.  I suppose that MH324 (seen in a photo on this post) could be another.  It was MH324 that prompted this rethink as the photo appears in this video described as "modified high-altitude Spitifirt Mk IX". (thank you to whoever pointed me in the direction of this video)

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On 25/05/2021 at 19:50, M20gull said:

Q12 Is there any more biography for Reynolds or Gold? 

 

I've had a bit of progress on Arthur George William Gold.  I have updated a biography on allspitfirepilots : https://allspitfirepilots.org/pilots/3069-arthur-gold which relies heavily on this link together with some input from Ancestry. 

and a bit more on Reynolds on this link detailing his aviation experience before reaching 103 MU

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