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Seeking Information On 800 Sqdn Skuas in South Atlantic


Old Man

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I understand the overall finish is aluminum lacquer, with port wing undersurface black.

 

I have no idea what squadron markings might have been employed while on HMS Ark Royal in the South Atlantic, or what might be serials and such of individual aircraft.

 

It might make a nice model.

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There are a few photos on the Imperial War Museum website photographic collection. One such linked below that is of an aircraft of 803 Sqn, the other Skua unit aboard Ark Royal was 800 Sqn. Standard FAA colour scheme of the time, Sky Type S undersurfaces and dark slate grey / extra dark sea grey camouflage upper surfaces. There’s plenty of images online showing this. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205138144

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I apologize for being unclear. I supposed the only time Ark Royal was in the South Atlantic was during the last months of 1939, as part of the baying of the Graf Spee. The Skuas on board were not yet camouflaged, though they did get the port wing undersurfaces painted black.

 

Squadron markings in the FAA are a recondite subject, and I am hoping someone has information on those of 800 FAA in that transitional period.

 

 

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Ark Royal was in the South Atlantic from about October 1939 to February 1940. There is a very small photo in Sturtivant's Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939-1945. This was taken on board Ark Royal in the South Atlantcic and shows two machines in overall silver with what I think are red wingtips like other, pre-war, 800 Sqn machines. No codes visible on either of these I am afraid, but there is another picture of L2878 taken about the same time in Stewart Lloyds' "Fleet Air Arm Camouflage and Markings" which is has the code 'L' probably in black on the fin. The fin is silver and not coloured.  Obviously the RN had not had time to arrange repainting of all her aicraft into more warlike colours at this time; I am slighly dubious about the black underside to the wing for the same reason; repainting large parts of multiple aircraft at sea isn't something to be undertaken lightly even if you have all the necessary stores on board.

 

I am afraid I have to disagree with Dervish's assessment of the use of Temperate Sea Scheme with Sky undersurfaces as this didn't come into use until a bit later - if any of Ark Royal's machines had been camouflaged at this time they should have "Sky Grey" undersurfaces rather than "Sky".     

Edited by Aidrian
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In the South Atlantic, so 1939 after the Graf Spee?  In which case Aluminium overall with Night underside to port wing, as the OP said.  At this stage the official camouflage was  scheme S1E, which had EDSeaG and DSlateG with Sky Grey undersides.  It is thought that the Night wing was painted when 800 Sq was still at Hatston prior to embarking, and thus following Air Ministry rules at the time (at least partially).  This appears to be normal for land-based aircraft, eg 880's Sea Hurricanes before embarking on Indomitable two years later.  Apparently 803 Squadron on Ark had its aircraft in S1E.  Sky did not become official until September 1940.  There is information and a picture in Stuart Lloyd (Ian Gazely)'s FAA Camouflage and Markings from Dalrymple and Verdun Publishing.  It shows an 800 Sq aircraft with a red fin and the letter K in white.  Another picture in FAA Aircraft 1939-45 shows K to have been L2993.  The normal colour for the code letter on the plain fin was Night.  At this stage the wingtips were painted in section colours, and this was retained until at least November 1939.  The aircraft behind it is L2931.  From Air Britain's FAA Squadrons we have L2877 as C, but no hint as to when.  FAA Aircraft however has it as C, then A7M, and lost in April 1940.  

 

Ian has suggestions from the Norway campaign that L3028 carried no code on the fuselage (where they had moved to after the return from the South Atlantic), L3046 as G or C. and L3055 as H.  It is not known whether 800 had been camouflaged before the attack on the Konigsberg, but presumably was before re-embarking?

 

It should be possible to find other examples by digging into FAA Aircraft: a quick look gives L2879 as A7C (an 803 Sq code?  The aircraft apparently transferred from 803) when lost in the South Atlantic.  803 Sq appears to be much better covered as far as serial/code links are concerned.

 

 

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Thank you very much, Gentlemen.

 

That is a good bit to be going on.

 

If pictures show one fin has color, and another is left silver, would it be reasonable to see the machine with the colored fin as the flight leader's aeroplane? If so, that would suggest the wingtips of a machine with a red fin are red as well.

 

Would the wingtip color continue onto the black undersurface of the port wing?

 

Would the undersurface of either wing display roundels?

 

I am prepared to guess if I have to, and my guess would be L2293 'white K' had red wingtips, that on the undersurface of the port wing this, and the roundel, were painted over, while the undersurface of the starboard wing continued to display both a red wingtip and a roundel, as before.

 

 

 

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My favourite subject would be L2877:C, of which a photograph is shown in "Fleet Air Arm ai War", an old volume by Ray Sturtivant in the Ian Allan "at War" series. The exact date is not reported, but personnel on deck wearing shorts and topees would be compatible with South Atlantic summer in late 1939.

This aircraft was finished in aluminium, with the single letter 'C' on the fin. Whereas undersides are not visible and the black port wing cannot be confirmed for L2877 (though likely), an interesting detail is that the upturned part of the wingtips is painted half white (inner), half black (outer), which I assume were flight colours.

 

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4 minutes ago, Old Man said:

I am prepared to guess if I have to, and my guess would be L2293 'white K' had red wingtips, that on the undersurface of the port wing this, and the roundel, were painted over, while the undersurface of the starboard wing continued to display both a red wingtip and a roundel, as before.

I seem to recall that the colour sequence was: first flight (A, B, C) white/black, second flight (F, G, H) red, third flight (K, L, M) blue. If this is right, L2933:K would be third flight leader and finn in full colour could be blue, but it is really hard to tell from a black and white picture, particularly in "that" photo of L2933.

 

I'm with you about the underside finish.

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That sounds like a good picture. If the tips were like that, the white inner portion might survive underneath. White is a poor marking on a silver finish, though.

 

I agree it is hard to tell colors from old b/w photographs, and by the scheme you suggest, the 'K' machine ought to have a blue fin.

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12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Ian has suggestions from the Norway campaign that L3028 carried no code on the fuselage (where they had moved to after the return from the South Atlantic), L3046 as G or C. and L3055 as H.  It is not known whether 800 had been camouflaged before the attack on the Konigsberg, but presumably was before re-embarking?

Slightly off-topic from the OP's request, pictures in "FAA Camouflage and markings" confirm that 800 Sqn. Skuas were camouflaged by the time of the Norwegian campaign. Both 800 and 803 Sqn. retained individual aircraft letters in their original position on the fins, even after these were painted red-white-blue from May 1940. Positions are seemingly typical for each squadron: 800 Sqn. placed letters mid-height on the fin; on 803 Sqn.'s machines they were closer to the fin base (as though at some time they had been part of  a vertically arranged full letter-number-letter code, but this my own speculation).

 

Individual letters were moved to the rear fuselage from mid-1940, when Ark Royal went to the Mediterranean. Around the same time, small number-letter codes (6x for 800 Sqn., 7x for 803 Sqn.) were also added to wing leading edges.

 

 

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13 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

I seem to recall that the colour sequence was: first flight (A, B, C) white/black, second flight (F, G, H) red, third flight (K, L, M) blue. If this is right, L2933:K would be third flight leader and finn in full colour could be blue, but it is really hard to tell from a black and white picture, particularly in "that" photo of L2933.

 

I'm with you about the underside finish.

 

 

I agree with most of this, though I think it is a strong possibility that the third flight was Yellow.  The well known picture of L2933:K I had thought was Red Flight Leader, with a red fin, but I now think it likely shows a yellow fin and yellow upturned wingtips taken on orthochromatic film or on panchromatic with a filter.  In the South Atlantic, Ark Royal only carried 6 Skuas from 800 Squadron (and one was lost on 8/12/39 according to the Ship's Log).  Photographs show aircraft from the first and third flight only (all but 800:A were photographed in the South Atlantic), so A,B, C, K, L, M. I have the serial numbers of all of these, though with the possibility of confusion between B and C. These are consistently referred to as White and Yellow Flights. When Ark Royal returned from the South Atlantic, there is a gap in photographic coverage until April 1940, but Admiralty reports then show 800 Squadron as a 9 Skua Squadron formed of White, Yellow and "spare" flights. Later in the month the "spare" flight becomes Red Flight (F, G, H,) and is consistently Red Flight through Operation DX, though by that time 800 Skuas were all camouflaged. 

 

In the South Atlantic, photographs show White Flight with black and white wing tips. The Squadron Leader's aircraft is also marked with black and white horizontal stripes on the fin, though I don't have a photo of this aircraft in the South Atlantic (the nearest is a photo I have of 800:A taking off from Ark Royal at Loch Ewe or Scapa Flow in the autumn of 1939 with what I believe is Royal Oak in the background - so before 14/10/39).  Yellow flight all have coloured wingtips. I had thought these were red, but given the naming of 800 Squadron flights, I now think this extremely unlikely. Yellow seems to be the most likely colour for 800: K,L,M, but I'd like to find a panchromatic photograph that shows the yellow as a light tone to be sure. Blue Flight is not mentioned in the context of 800 Squadron at this time.

Edited by iang
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3 hours ago, iang said:

Yellow seems to be the most likely colour for 800: K,L,M, but I'd like to find a panchromatic photograph that shows the yellow as a light tone to be sure.

Thank you for the very interesting overview, Ian.

The actual correspondence between "call-sign flight colour" and "painted flight colour" may be hard to check (for instance, later in the war there have been "pink flight" or "brown flight" occasionally). In this case my doubt is only about the colour of the code letter: would it be white on a yellow fin? Possible but slightly unlikely, IMHO, more so if 'L' and 'M' had black codes on plain aluminium fins.

 

Best regards

Claudio

Edited by ClaudioN
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Claudio,

 

You make a good point on the colour of the individual aircraft letter, but white on yellow is not impossible - especially since the ID of the aircraft in flight would be from the full coloured fin. The matching of colour of individual aircraft letters and colour of Skua flight in Admiralty document corresponds exactly for 803 squadron. 800 squadron didn't use coloured individual letters, so it's harder to be sure of the correspondence for 800 Squadron, so I agree that this has to be a more tentative conclusion. But if 800: K,L,M were yellow, everything would line-up nicely. I was also stuck by how yellow appears in orthochromatic photos of the period. Compare this well known image of Swordfish P3992 from Glorious, where we know the carrier band and probably the fin were yellow:

 

 

 

 

With L2933:K, where it has been assumed in most artwork that the fin was red:

 

 

 

Notice that the photo of L2933 is definitely on orthochromatic film (or panchromatic film with a filter), as the blue of the roundel is significantly lighter than the red of the roundel.  All consistent with the fin being yellow - though of course not proof that it was.

 

Best,

Ian

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Ian,

 

very good points, although we might also consider the possibility that the fin of P3992 is blue, which has been discussed previously here on BM.

Just to play with the idea, is the shade of grey on the fin closer to the yellow carrier band on the fuselage or to the blue background of the squadron badge on the fin? The yellow band on the fuselage is on a curved surface where the amount of light/shade continuously varies. The squadron badge is on the same surface as the rest of the fin... even so, I can think of no definite answer (admittedly, a personal preference for blue).

 

Regardless, 'G5K' on the yellow band is black, not yellow, and I believe white over yellow would generally be avoided as it is harder to see.

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One last point on the individual aircraft ID - the issue of white on yellow not being visible. 800:A carried no letter at all at this time, relying entirely on the fin markings for ID. So if K in white was not that visible on yellow, the yellow fin surely would have been.  Moreover, what I assume to be the section leader of 803 Yellow Flight (L2879), appears only to have had a yellow fin, with the squadron badge visible, but no 'K' ID letter.

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Regarding the 'K' letter.

 

It is hard to see it as white in that photograph. Its grey tone is much closer to that of the aluminum-doped rudder, or to the tone of the roundel's blue,  than to the tone of the roundel's white ring.

 

I have no idea how these suggestions might fare compared to known practice, but two occur to me.

 

One: could the letter be silver, done in aluminum paint? That might stand out better than white.

 

Two: given the vagaries of ortho film and filters, could this picture not be of a blue letter on a yellow fin? That is a very striking combination, and USAAC aeroplanes in the 'blue and yellow' period often show the blue fuselage quite pale, and the yellow wings quite dark.

 

Many thanks to you all for sharing your knowledge. This is a real treat to read through.

 

 

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Yes, I agree it could be aluminium, but I'm not sure about blue (which I had not considered - so thanks for the suggestion). The blue of the roundel is significantly darker that the K on the fin. I have seen orthochromatic photographs where the blue is very light, but I don't think that this is one of them, unless the blue used was significantly different from roundel blue. Aluminium, on the other hand, appears a good call.

Edited by iang
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18 hours ago, iang said:

Yes, I agree it could be aluminium, but I'm not sure about blue (which I had not considered - so thanks for the suggestion). The blue of the roundel is significantly darker that the K on the fin. I have seen orthochromatic photographs where the blue is very light, but I don't think that this is one of them, unless the blue used was significantly different from roundel blue. Aluminium, on the other hand, appears a good call.

 

Thank you, Sir. Glad to see I hadn't piled into 'that's not even wrong' territory. I have done a lot of 'Yellow Wings' era U.S. subjects, and am quite used to blue showing pale and yellow showing dark. Blue and yellow does catch the eye --- the USAAC chose blue fuselages after trials aimed at reducing mid-air collisions.

 

On the fuselage roundel, the blue and red are awfully close in tone, by ortho standards. It is an interesting photograph, that has a professional air.

 

Of course for a model I could moot the fin number color, by taking one of the rank and file machines referenced above, L2877:C with black and white wingtips, or L2878:L with yellow wingtips.

 

Again, my thanks to all for sharing your knowledge.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 3 months later...

What the heck was I looking at back in Feb. to miss this thread since this is my interest?   Not that I can contribute with anything but more questions; but to harken back to remarks by one expert years ago re: coloring queries is to start at the requirements.  Ian's book mentions flight colors; so first is black, or black and white for a/c A, B, C; second is red for F, G, H; and third is blue for K, L, and M.  As one of those who tends to stare at pics but claims no expertise at photo interpretation; looking at Skua 'K' above, it is clear that the blue of the fuselage cockade varies in darkness to a shade consistent with that of the tail.  Turning to that of the wing, the blue ring is consistent with most, but not all, of the wing tip shade, though there is reflection due to it being upturned.  Now, I was sure(?) that the tail and wing tip were a blue that matched the insignia.  But, now that Ian mentioned "yellow flight" I'm less sure.  However, to return to that Swordfish, section leader 'K', which was discussed many moons ago and mentioned in this thread by Claudio, the tail color matches the inside blue of the squadron badge while also looking like the yellow carrier band.  So, to repeat a question I believe I asked all those moons ago, were there two blue colors in use; one lighter for sections and the  earlier cockades, and a darker insignia blue used later for national markings?  I seem to recall that the blue in the decals for biplanes whether British or American was much lighter than for the later monoplane models, which I assumed was reasonably accurate.  Two blues?  Drawings of pre-war planes of HMS Eagle show the light blue carrier band, but I don't recall seeing section color blue in those.   

Any answers possible other than "...it's your model, paint it...."???  Ian, you're the expert, but as you said, short of a panchro pic....

Before I sign off to everyone's relief,  those photo captions of Skuas with black and white wingtips;  I believe they are just one color, the tip color being in line with the wing light and the 'white' a reflection due to just being more perpendicular to sunlight, as said 'white' matches other parts of the aluminum doped/painted fuselage...but hey, what do I know?

Thanks for indulging me.

 

Cheerio!

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On 6/10/2021 at 11:25 PM, expositor said:

Before I sign off to everyone's relief,  those photo captions of Skuas with black and white wingtips;  I believe they are just one color, the tip color being in line with the wing light and the 'white' a reflection due to just being more perpendicular to sunlight, as said 'white' matches other parts of the aluminum doped/painted fuselage...but hey, what do I know?

For anybody's reference, the photo I have in mind is on page 10 of "Fleet Air Arm at War" by Ray Sturtivant (Ian Allan, 1982). The aircraft depicted is Skua L2877:C and the photo is, of course, not in colour.

Open to interpretation, as for 'K'.

 

P.S.: the same photo appears also on page 65 of "Fleet Air Arm Camouflage and Markings, 1937-1941" by Stuart Lloyd (Dalrymple and Verdun, 2008), but it is clipped and does not show the aircraft port wingtip. IMHO, comparison between the starboard and port wingtips helps a lot in the interpretation.

Edited by ClaudioN
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On 10/06/2021 at 22:25, expositor said:

 

Before I sign off to everyone's relief,  those photo captions of Skuas with black and white wingtips;  I believe they are just one color, the tip color being in line with the wing light and the 'white' a reflection due to just being more perpendicular to sunlight, as said 'white' matches other parts of the aluminum doped/painted fuselage...but hey, what do I know?

Thanks for indulging me.

 

Cheerio!

 

No question that they were two colours! Black and white seems very likely.

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Well, I stand corrected again!  Ian, thanks for posting that pic, as my only source for a Skua so painted was an S.A.M photo of Skuas on the foredeck of the Ark (I believe) taken from overhead from the conning tower catwalk(?). Such should make me more believing of what was written in those magazines all those years ago, though I only came to doubts since the internet took over intellectual inquiry.  (That saiI still doubt their camouflage  pattern for the Brewster Buffalo carrier test a/c of the FAA, but again, what do I know!)

 

So, what do those interested think about the blue colors?

 

Ciao!

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That said I still....Man, I hate this spell check which suddenly appeared, that I have no idea how to disable as all their Amazon fire help doesn't offer any bloody help for that!!!  My lack of computer savvy is no longer in doubt....

 

Thanks!

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