Spitfire IX Gunsight Question

[11bravo]

Anyone have an idea on whether an .IX flying in November of ‘44 would have had the gyro gunsight installed or would it have had the earlier fixed reticle sight?    
 

Any info is much appreciated. 

[wellsprop]

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/219177-mk-ii-gyro-gunsight/

 

According to this forum/thread all 2TAF IXs had a GGS by summer 44.

 

I can't comment on accuracy. 

[Troy Smith]

3 minutes ago, 11bravo said:

Anyone have an idea on whether an .IX flying in November of ‘44 would have had the gyro gunsight installed or would it have had the earlier fixed reticle sight?    
 

Any info is much appreciated. 

You might get a better answer by being more specific,   an older Mk.IX would have the older sight, a new one may have had the Gyro,  if you have a specific subject, in mind, ask about that. 

 

And... it's always worth searching here via google

I put this in "britmodeller spitfire gyro gunsight" and this was the first hit

I'll quote the two relevant posts

  

On 23/09/2012 at 21:06, Edgar said:

It's one of those questions which is desperately difficult to answer; according to available records, all low-back XVIs had the IID GGS (don't just use Mk.II, since that could be, and was, applied to the reflector sight.)

At a meeting 29-5-44, it was reported that 300 Mk.IX Spitfires had been retrospectively fitted with the sight, but, at that time, the XVI was still known as the IX, so some of those 300 could have gone to them.

At the same meeting, they were still talking of trial installations in the XIV & 21, and, according to Supermarine, those two Marks didn't get them until June/July 1945. No other Marks are mentioned as getting them during the war, though there was nothing to stop senior officers "stealing a march," and getting them early. The work was quite complex, since it involved installation of several "black boxes," plus a completely new throttle system.

The gunsight was anything but unimportant, since it removed the necessity for the pilot to estimate the amount of lead/aiming off, before firing, which was one of the biggest stumbling-blocks for those not naturally gifted that way.

 

On 24/09/2012 at 00:27, Daniel Cox said:

To add further to Edgar's post regarding the usage of the Ferranti Gyroscopic Gun Sight G.G.S. Mk.IID, I can add the following which may be of interest.

There is some film footage in the collection of British Pathé, as well as a number of photographs captured by Flying Officer (F/O) A. Goodchild, that are held in the collection of the Imperial War Museum (IWM). That show various 442 and 443 Squadron (Sqn.) Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) Spitfire LF Mk. IXc aircraft all equipped with the G.G.S. Mk.IID sight in June of 1944. The before mentioned still and moving images were captured on Saturday, June 10, 1944 at the Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) British Strip No. 3 at Sainte-Croix-sur-Mer, Normandy.

Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.IXc aircraft identified in photographs with Gyro Sights at Sainte-Croix-sur-Mer on 10 June 1944 are listed below;

MK772 Y2-P 442 Sqn. RCAF

Y2-V 442 Sqn. RCAF

Y2-X 442 Sqn. RCAF

MH370 2I-N 443 Sqn. RCAF

Note: Other Spitfires are also seen with Gyro Sights as the above listed aircraft at the same location and date, unfortunately however I have been unable to establish their individual aircraft identities to date.

In addition to the material above, there are also images captured by Flight Lieutenant (F/Lt) B. J. Daventry at ALG British Strip No. 2 at Bazenville, Normandy 13 August 1944.That show various 421 Sqn. RCAF Spitfire LF Mk.IXc aircraft equipped with the G.G.S. Mk.IID as well. There is also an image captured by Pilot Officer P/O R. R. Broom of someone operating the Gyro Sight on a 127 Wing Spitfire Mk.IX on 17 August 1944, that was also at ALG British Strip No. 2 at Bazenville, Normandy.

The Operations Record Book (ORB) of 421 Sqn RCAF records that the squadron was made temporarily Non-Operational for the installation of the new G.G.S. Mk.II into its aircraft on the 21st of April 1944. Later on the 23rd of April the 421 Sqn. ORB states that "Everyone well pleased with new G.G.S. Mk. II".

The April date is interesting since there is also a picture published on page 92 of the 2nd Tactical Air Force Volume One by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas which shows a Spitfire )X HG-C of Wing Commander Hugh Godefroy 127 Airfield/Wing which was photographed in mid April featuring the new G.G.S. Mk.IID sight.

Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.IXc aircraft identified in photographs with Gyro Sights at Bazenville 13 August 1944 are listed below;

MJ820 AU- 421 Sqn. RCAF

Note: Other Spitfires are also seen with Gyro Sights as the above listed aircraft at the same location and date, unfortunately however I have been unable to establish their individual aircraft identities to date.

Bibliography

British Pathé (Video Newsreel Film)

UN 0877 A / 1969.01 Making Airfield - Sainte-Croix-sur-Mer - 10 June 1944.

Imperial War Museum Images

CL 76

CL 87

CL 88

CL 95

CL 99

CL 782

CL 854

HU 92137

HU 92139

The National Archives, Kew

AIR 27/1828 No. 421 Squadron (Royal Canadian Air Force) Operations Record Book

AIR 27/1881 No. 441 Squadron (Royal Canadian Air Force) Operations Record Book

AIR 27/1882 No. 442 Squadron (Royal Canadian Air Force) Operations Record Book

AIR 27/1883 No. 443 Squadron (Royal Canadian Air Force) Operations Record Book

Books

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force: Volume One, Spartan to Normandy, June 1943 to June 1944, Classic, Hersham, 2004.

Cheers,

Daniel.

 

 

I'll also @gingerbob and @Peter Roberts , and @Geoffrey Sinclair may have some details filed away.

 

HTH

[Peter Roberts]

1 hour ago, 11bravo said:

Anyone have an idea on whether an .IX flying in November of ‘44 would have had the gyro gunsight installed or would it have had the earlier fixed reticle sight?    
 

Any info is much appreciated. 

 

As the info Troy has posted suggests, there doesn't seem to be any specific records of when these gun sights were installed in either new aircraft or retrospectively. At least, I haven't seen any so can't add anything to what Troy has posted. Perhaps reasonable to assume that these gunsights were widely used in Mk IX/XVI's by late '44/early '45, but it would be an assumption. As Troy has said, it would be better to be more specific - do you have a particular aircraft in mind, or Squadron? Photographic evidence (if available) might then be more indicative.

[11bravo]

Good point on tailoring my search criteria.  For what it’s worth, I’m planning on building MJ532 / UF-Q.   

[Peter Roberts]

Ah, that helps, but I have some questions on this subject. There is a build article here on Britmodeller:

 

 

That suggests MJ532 was coded UF-G, not Q.  From what I can gather, it is based on the decals and following photo:

 

 

However, while my eyes aren't great they tell me that second numeral isn't a '3'. It looks more like a '5' to me, suggesting MJ552 assuming the other characters are as suggested. Further, the production listing for Spitfires notes in the history of MJ532 that it was built in December 1943, and delivered to Casablanca in March 1944 before serving with 601 Squadron as 'UF-P'. 

 

If you are building UF-Q, the aircraft in the background, that is a different story. That Spitfire has been identified as MJ250, and the production listing for that aircraft indicates it was built in October 1943. It was delivered to Casablanca in December 1943 before serving with 601 Squadron, where it was struck off charge on 5 June 1945. 

 

As regards gyro gunsights, my best guess is that MJ532 probably never had one, as I'd have thought aircraft involved in the re-occupation of Europe would have had priority to get these. I would suggest it is highly likely that MJ250 did get a gyro gunsight, given it's length of service, but as to when I'll leave for others to say.

 

(For what it's worth, I'd go for red codes on the silver MJ250, 'UF-Q'   )

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Peter Roberts