Acrylics versus Enamels

[fishplanebeer]

I've very recently returned to the hobby after a hiatus of 20+ years and back in the day everything was enamels, including varnishes, and I'm still happy to continue using them but now thinking about possibly using acrylics as well, not withstanding the fact (?) that apparently it is even more vital to prime the subject prior to painting/spraying to obtain good adhesion.

 

However before I consider using acrylics there a few of questions I have regarding the basic rules that need to be followed when applying acrylic paint and varnish, and particularly when it comes to using both acrylics and enamels together on the same subject, so hopefully someone can help.

 

1. Can an acrylic varnish be applied over enamel paint, and vice versa?

2. Can an acrylic varnish be applied over an existing enamel varnish, and vice versa?

3. Can an enamel/oil wash be applied over an acrylic varnish?

 

Sorry if this rather basic but just want avoid making a complete pigs ear of the finish after investing many hours building the model.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

[malpaso]

I've not had any problems with acrylic over enamel or vice versa.  As long as they're dry.

 

Except to start with I didn't realise the starter pots were acrylic and mixed some with my old enamels to get some colour or other which gave a very strange consistency, but surprisingly eventually brushed and dried out okay!

 

If you are doing washes they work best over the opposite gloss, so the thinners in them don't attack the gloss (you need gloss as washes make matt finishes look very dirty).

[Mike]

There's a lot of dos and don'ts out there, but IMHO, it's mainly Tamiya acrylics that don't like being painted over.  Most of the other stuff you can paint over as long as your leave it long enough for the paint to cure well - 24 to 48 hours will cover most options.  There's also the technique of barrier coats, such as re-priming if you're not sure.

 

Just keep that in mind and you should be ok.  Enamels are tough, but smell bad and take ages to dry.  Acrylics are less tough, smell better and take a lot less time to dry.  Some folks can't get along with them, some can.  When I came back to the hobby I decided to decamp to the acrylic format and have never looked back.  You can usually get away with handling acrylics, but if you find a brand that's less robust, just put a coat of clear gloss over it.

[lasermonkey]

Enamels don’t smell bad or take ages to dry if you use Colourcoats paints with their thinners. I’ve masked over them after just thirty minutes of spraying. True story!

[dnl42]

I regularly use acrylic clear coats on my builds, which are mostly Mr Color (lacquer), but also enamels and acrylics as I need. 

 

FWIW, water-based acrylic paints are thicker than enamels, which are thicker than lacquers.

[modelmaker]

I also came back to the hobby after many years; I went with enamels (Humbrol which I can get locally). I have tried various acrylics over 20 years but I rarely get results I'm happy with although everyone else I know, with few exceptions, uses them and love them. Vallejo seem to be favourite at the moment.  I'd manage if I couldn't get enamel I suppose, it'd concentrate my mind I suppose but while it's still available I'll stick with what I know. I've not tried the Colourcoats yet but I often find the longer drying time with my Humbrols are often not THAT long and I've always got lots of other models on the go so it's not a problem. 

 

I realise this probably won't help though...... good luck though. 

[sinnerboy]

Recent convert to lacquers, the more I use them the more I like them(spraying). Was always an enamel man but only Colourcoats or Xtracolour now. Humbrol of many moons ago was good but the new stuff is like painting(brush) with opaque butter...awful.

Love the clean up of acrylics but,I think, a bit fragile for me.

As for the odour? well call me weird i quite like the smell of enamels & lacquers, In actual fact I was priming  the woodwork in the hall today with Zinsser B.I.N shellac primer...lovely smell, a bit like a fine old Port ( and I don't mean Portsmouth, sorry Spooky )    

[dnl42]

I've used enamels (Floquil and MM) and acrylics (Vallejo) in the past. Once I learned to properly airbrush Mr Color, there is truly NO going back! The stuff is amazing when properly applied to a well-prepared surface. I do miss not being able to brush Mr Color as I could with Floquil, but I've also learned to prepare and airbrush very small batches of paint so there's very little waste.

[Lewis95]

I suppose it all comes down to circumstance. Given my limited time for modelling and existing familiarity with the medium, I well and truly committed to acrylics. Let me tell you a quick insight to what you can do with acrylics....

 

Thursday, my RLM78 arrived for a tropical scheme I'm doing. It was airbrushed on and the AB was then cleaned out in the bathroom sink. Nothing smelly at all. Handy when you've got to remain in the same room after but I digress.... 

 

Last night (Friday night) I sprayed the RLM 79 and 80. In the same session. Now that is something you can't do with enamels. 

 

And tonight, I picked out all the brush painted parts before airbrushing a waterbased gloss coat over the entire model. 

 

If I was working with enamels, this paint scheme would of taken maybe.... 8 or 9 hours? Over 3 nights, I've completed the painting and all the sessions at the bench were less than 30 - 40 minutes including the airbrush cleanup. 

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

3. Can an enamel/oil wash be applied over an acrylic varnish?

yes, depending on the varnish.  I use Kleer,  apparently Lakeland Quickshine is the same,  which is hard wearing (it's meant for floors) self levelling acrylic gloss, so it's tough stuff.  

 

Tip, try using lighter fuel to dilute artist oil paint,  make for a very thin, flowing/seeking wash, that dries really fast.  excess wash can be removed, or moved about with a clean brush wetted in lighter fuel. 

 

Quote

Sorry if this rather basic but just want avoid making a complete pigs ear of the finish after investing many hours building the model.

get a test 'paint mule' for experiments,  and have a play.   

 

Doesn't even have to be a kit, just something that is comparable plastic,  or if say using a base primer like Halfords primer,  almost anything that will take the paint.    

 

What you will find asking questions like these is multitude of answers,  (as shown by the above) which are helpful, and can also be contradictory.   What works me may not for you, hence having a tester to experiment with.  

 

one final point,  there are basically two types acrylic model paint,  'lacquer' acrylic, like Tamiya and Gunze, which are 'hotter'  and latex acrylic, like Vallejo, Xtracrylix, Humbrol, Revell Aqua. These are reasonably fragile, and need to cure.    

 

They are not intermixable types, and if you put a 'hotter' acrylic over a latex one, it's likely to damage it. 

 

for the few models I have completed. (have a look at my profile 'about me' for links to these) 

 

brush paint acrylic,  prime with a rattle can halfords or brushed Tamiya thinned with water and drop of flow improper,(despite frequent complaints you can't brush tamiya, you can, but needs thing like this to work, otherwise the 'hotter' solvents cause it drag up paint you just applied)   then Vallejo, again, thinned with water with a drop of flow improver,  Kleer coat, oil paint/lighter fuel wash,  windsor and newton Galleria for final matt coat, add weathering on top with pastel chalk and neat oil paint streaked with lighter fuel for oil stains.

 

I have used oil paint/lighter fuel on Vallejo directly for washes on a figure, the Vallejo was on Mr Surfacer.    

 

Finally,  just to stress this,  get a test mule and try out your paint techniques  on that if in doubt rather than finding out that you made mistep on your latest project. 

 

HTH   

[lasermonkey]

1 hour ago, Lewis95 said:

I suppose it all comes down to circumstance. Given my limited time for modelling and existing familiarity with the medium, I well and truly committed to acrylics. Let me tell you a quick insight to what you can do with acrylics....

 

Thursday, my RLM78 arrived for a tropical scheme I'm doing. It was airbrushed on and the AB was then cleaned out in the bathroom sink. Nothing smelly at all. Handy when you've got to remain in the same room after but I digress.... 

 

Last night (Friday night) I sprayed the RLM 79 and 80. In the same session. Now that is something you can't do with enamels. 

 

And tonight, I picked out all the brush painted parts before airbrushing a waterbased gloss coat over the entire model. 

 

If I was working with enamels, this paint scheme would of taken maybe.... 8 or 9 hours? Over 3 nights, I've completed the painting and all the sessions at the bench were less than 30 - 40 minutes including the airbrush cleanup. 

Again, if you're using Colourcoats enamels with their own thinner, you absolutely can. It's touch dry in 5-10 minutes. I've masked over CC after just 30 minutes. I've yet to try CC thinners with Humbrol in the speed drying test, but I would expect comparable results.

Use poor quality thinners and yeah, you'll be waiting for days.

[Scimitar F1]

I am shifting totally to lacquer and alcohol based acrylics going forward. MRP, Mr Color and Tamiya - all thinned with Mr Levelling thinners. 

Why - speed. You can paint and mask and paint and mask all night long. Plus they are more controllable when spraying to avoid runs etc.
 

Some rules that I always follow; wear gloves and carefully degrease the model before priming. 

Enamels are better for detailed brush painting

[dromia]

Aye this enamels smell and long drying time is another internet fallacy. Like the need for a gloss varnish for water slide transfers.

 

The choice of thinner is the key, not all white spirit is the same. Colourcoats do an excellent odour free enamel thinner, I use nahptha for most on my thinning and works very well and is touch dry in 15 minutes and I am happy to mask and paint over in half an hour.

 

Works with my Colourcoats, Humbrol, Xtracolour and Precision paints enamels.

 

Dabbling with cellulose paints like MRP and Mr Colour at the moment, good paint but the thinner does stink, I have a good extraction booth and wear a particulate/vapour mask as a matter of course when working but one whiff of the cellulose thinner and I get a cough so nasty stuff but good paint, the MRP is bit on the thin side so limited to certain uses, Mr Colour is thicker, so much more versatile for thining to the consistency for the particular task.

 

Gave up on "acrylics" (another misused and confusing internet term) I am talking the water based paints here, as a fiddle on too far, finicky, prone to tip dry, fragile, and creates a nasty dust when sprayed so although less smell a mask is still essential.

 

Just do a search and see all the "fixes" for using water based acrylics and that tells you that they are not plain sailing.

[tank152]

53 minutes ago, dromia said:

the MRP is bit on the thin side so limited to certain uses, 

Explain this please. 

I've been using MRP for a couple of years now and up to yet never found it limited to anything. The beauty of MRP is that you can build your colour up slowly, even the lighter colours have excellent coverage. 

My be your the type that like to hose your paint on and expect full coverage in one pass? If so no MRP isn't for you. 

[dromia]

Exactly my point there are times when hosing it on is what is required just as there are times when building up thin coats is what is required, I have thinned MRP even further to get those very thin ghost coats.

 

My point is that MRP is very thin to start with so limits your ability to choice how thin your paint is so less flexible than Mr Colour which is thicker to start with so has more opportunity for getting just the right ratio of paint to thinner for your needs for a particular task..

[tank152]

18 minutes ago, dromia said:

Exactly my point there are times when hosing it on is what is required just as there are times when building up thin coats is what is required, I have thinned MRP even further to get those very thin ghost coats.

 

My point is that MRP is very thin to start with so limits your ability to choice how thin your paint is so less flexible than Mr Colour which is thicker to start with so has more opportunity for getting just the right ratio of paint to thinner for your needs for a particular task..

I've never felt the need to ever hose paint onto any of my models personally. 

The whole point of MRP is that it's thinned to a ratio that is ready to go, sure you can thin it more, as I do sometimes.

If you're saying it's no use for large areas then take a look at this guy's work using MRP, 

1/32 Bf-109

https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=138240#p2394284

1/32 Do-335

https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=137337

 

[dromia]

No I am not saying that at all, it builds up fine on large areas.

 

I have no issue with building up thin paint layers and use it most of the time for my final finish coats especially as it allows my to make the most of my mottled undercoats.

 

Here is an example of when its thinness works against it, I am currently working on a late war RAF camouflage scheme on a Special Hobby 1/32 Tempest V. I like to mottle undercoat over a black primer before building up the final coat. I started mottling with azure blue on the black went down fine then I wanted to put down some dark sea grey and it was just so thin that I couldn't see where I'd been and if I had got the effect I wanted, sure for coverage it would have built up fine into a nice final coat, but for one shot mottling its viscosity just wasn't right, a similar grey from Mr Colour was thinned a bit thicker and it worked fine going down as  well as the MRP but just that bit thicker so that I could see what I was doing and where I'd been on the first pass.

 

 

[dromia]

Just an adjunct to that with the dark sea grey I could have used hand held mottle stencils if so then that would have been a time when "hosing it on" would have worked fine to get sufficient  build up in a pass or two.

 

Hand held stencil work is no conducive to multiple coats if you want the colour in the same place.

[Lewis95]

On 13/02/2021 at 03:36, lasermonkey said:

Again, if you're using Colourcoats enamels with their own thinner, you absolutely can. It's touch dry in 5-10 minutes. I've masked over CC after just 30 minutes. I've yet to try CC thinners with Humbrol in the speed drying test, but I would expect comparable results.

Use poor quality thinners and yeah, you'll be waiting for days.

 

Don't think I've ever seen CC for sale either online or in a Hobby shop. Whilst it may be dry within 10 minutes, is it cured enough to be topcoated with other things? Unfortunately, I think CC are the exception to the rule in this instance. 

[dromia]

"The choice of thinner is the key, not all white spirit is the same. Colourcoats do an excellent odour free enamel thinner, I use nahptha for most on my thinning and works very well and is touch dry in 15 minutes and I am happy to mask and paint over in half an hour.

 

Works with my Colourcoats, Humbrol, Xtracolour and Precision paints enamels."

 

Colour Coats thinner works as above and not just with Colour Coats enamels, I suspect it is naphtha based as well going by its similarity to naphtha but only surmising on that.

[Graham Boak]

I remember Jamie saying precisely that: the CC thinner is naphtha based, although after an "odour free" claim on my part he was also quick to point out that he considers this an overstatement.  It is certainly much less smelly that White Spirit, or the cellulose thinners required by some of the acrylic lacquers.

 

I must admit to still treating CC as any other enamel and leaving it at least overnight before adding another colour on top.  This is despite recognising it as being quicker to dry than other enamels, so possibly I am being overly cautious in this respect.  I do however take advantage of this to add an adjacent colour the same session, as in a typical RAF camouflage scheme,

[ckw]

6 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I must admit to still treating CC as any other enamel and leaving it at least overnight before adding another colour on top

Me too - largely because I use a mix of CC,  Xtracolour and if necessary, Humbrol - just easier to have one workflow for all enamels rather than inevitably making a mistake. 

 

I just had a sniff of CC thinner and household white spirit - I'd say CC is between 50-75% less smelly

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[dromia]

I certainly don't rush to cover after panting, I am no speed painter.

 

I usually leave a couple of days 'tween colours not just enamels but all paints as I like to spend some time with a finish ensuring I am happy with it afore moving onto the next colour.

 

Having said that I put a top coat of Colour coats down yesterday and quiet happily laid oramask masks on half a hour later to check that I had left enough overlap for the neck colour and they came away fine with no paint lift so I would have been happy to spray onto that.

 

I suspect that some of the things that has contributed to the drying time story about enamels is back in the days when we all brush painted and laid it down thick using well thinned enamels with a quality thinner via and airbrush must surely help speed up its drying process. Also variable thinners especially DIY style white spirit doesn't help as some of the volume stuff out there is awful for thinning enamels, that is why I moved to naphtha as it seem to be a far more consistent product.

 

Regarding the smell for me and this could be an age thing, if I open a bottle of Mr levelling thinner it stinks, if I open a bottle of white spirit it stinks, If I open a bottle of Colourcoats thinner or Naphtha it doesn't smell to my notice or to mt families notice. Not saying doesn't smell but for me it is not at all noticeable so definitely far more user friendly even if not totally odour free.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I also still use Xtracolour, Humbrol and Precision Paints (not to mention WEM Colour Coats), partly to use old stock in preference to new where both are acceptable.  However I find using Humbrol for an undercoat (approximate match) and CC for the the more accurate final coat seems to produce the best results.  Humbrol remains the best paint for covering in a single coat (brush painting) whereas more modern paints seem to have a lower density of pigment.  Perhaps, however, this is at least partially more a matter of time and effort spent stirring!  (A specific instruction with the original Humbrol Authentics.)   I do seem to get better coverage with CC since getting a little Badger whizzer and remembering to use it.

[ckw]

47 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I do seem to get better coverage with CC since getting a little Badger whizzer and remembering to use it.

Perhaps my biggest revelation since returning to modelling is what a difference properly stirring paints makes -and how much better an electric stirrer is compared to hand stirring. I simply will not use a paint now without first giving it a good spin.

 

Am I mis remembering or were the old Humbrol Authentics very fast drying? Sadly I have none left.

 

Cheers

 

Colin