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Beaufort Turrets


Mi Tasol

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On 16/03/2021 at 23:27, dogsbody said:

Whilst perusing the IWM site, looking at Beaufort photos, I found this one. It's not a rarity but it's the first time I've seen a large sized one. 

It shows the Daimler turret with one Vickers gun. Notice that it shows the right-hand gun, the one that was mounted on it's side.

 

51044622812_d474229fd3_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

Chris

IWM caption for this photo:-

Air gunners at their positions on board a Bristol Beaufort Mk I (L4461 OA-J) of No. 22 Squadron at North Coates, July 1940. One gunner occupies the Bristol Mark IV turret, mounting a single .303 Vickers K-type gas-operated machine gun (VGO). For added protection against beam attacks, 22 Squadron has installed another K gun, mounted in the port entry hatch.

Note in particular the last sentence - this implies this is a field/squadron developed installation, which, as I've not found another photo of any other Beaufort with this installation leads me to believe this is correct and it's a trials/proof of concept installation

 

On 17/03/2021 at 07:18, mick b said:

 

Instead of it being armour plate could it not just be a reinforcement plate in order to allow the fitting of the gun mount internally? 

 

Mike

Given that this is most likely a unique installation I'm inclined to agree with you Mike. I'm pretty sure this isn't the standard gun mount fitted on other Beauforts so the plate is almost certainly associated with the gun mounting.

 

As the production installation for the side gun is mounted on a substantial beam slightly inboard of the door opening I'm intrigued as to how this operated in conjunction with the doors.

The entrance door is split horizontally, and the upper section is hinged along it's top edge and folds inwards and upwards and can be partially seen in quite a few photo's of the open doorway taken from outside.

Logic would have the lower section hinged along it's bottom edge and it folding inwards to hang down inside against the fuselage side, and consequently can't be seen from outside when open.

The above photo is the only one I've found that shows the lower section of the door in anything other than the closed position - it appears to be hinged at the bottom as per the assumption and there's some sort of stay rod on the lower left edge.  The window has been removed and an interrupter bar fitted to protect the wing trailing edge, but it looks to me to be the original aircraft door.

There's photo's of later Beauforts with the doors closed, and with the lower door not visible and the gun mounting beam fitted -  if the door hinged along it's bottom edge it wouldn't open fully with the gun mounting beam in position, so the question is "how did this door open?" 

Was the beam hinged to swing out of the way? or slotted into sockets when  the door was opened, or was the door opening modified? did it lift out completely to be stowed loose in side after the upper door had been opened? I've not been able to find any internal photos or drawings that could answer this query, anyone know? @Mi Tasol do you have a photo of the port mount you could share corresponding to the very useful photo you posted above of the stbd mount?

 

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It looks like Mike and Dave nailed it - it is almost certainly a reinforcing plate for a field mod that became a factory fit on later aircraft.

 

The gun installation on the RH side may have started as a field mod also as it was not fitted to the early Australian aircraft anyway, as you can see from the illustrations below.  The key is the group of hydraulic lines  arrowed  in the upper drawing.  The sea markers were re-located on later aircraft.

p?i=f8e49b04e68e7c712c29f96a605a9f92

 

p?i=a28a2d0f202891a9de3255aee974ad20

 

The entry hatch lower half is held at its base by two tongues (in top right illustration) that fit in the lower door frame.  When not in use I believe it was stowed beside the elsan closet.

p?i=8efd3b5488c1f94f9fb4662a3d71de14

 

Unfortunately I have no photos or illustrations of the LH gun mounting.

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7 hours ago, Mi Tasol said:

The entry hatch lower half is held at its base by two tongues (in top right illustration) that fit in the lower door frame.  When not in use I believe it was stowed beside the elsan closet.

 

That would work. Thanks for that. Stowage would also be logical as the elsan lid looks like it's in a convenient place to be used as a step when getting in or out.

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  • 1 month later...

Well I have just returned from visiting the Caboolture workshop where they are restoring an Australian Beaufort (A9-141) to fly and looked at their multiple turrets and sole turret publication, until I gave them the RAAF Mk 1 Turret manual.

I will post photos later, and some pages from the manual they have, and the latter is most interesting. 

Like me, the person there who I spoke to has never seen a Mk VE/3 Turret identification tab on any turret he has worked on and he has seen plenty of Mk VI turrets BUT the manual he is working from is, you guessed it, for the Mk VE/3.   He says the Mk IV, V and VI turrets are all very similar with relatively minor variations.  The manual shows the Mk VE/3 has the Beaufort Mk I rotation system though which is very different to the Blenheim rotation system on the Mk IV, V and VI.   Interestingly one turret he has has a Mk V1 plate which would suggest it was a Mk V modified to Mk VI standard.  I emailed him a B1 manual a few minutes back but I do not know which submodel it is (some pages, including the title page, are missing).  Now the question became - what was the Mk VI turret used in?  All the Mk VI turrets he has collected came from a major Beaufort recycle yard in Melbourne so that probably means it was used on the Beaufort.  Although that yard did not scrap Ansons, Anson was another possibility so I checked my AP 1525A,D,E,F Anson vol 1 (Maintenance) Manual and sure enough that turret was used on Ansons. 

I know of another Beaufort turret collector in Victoria and will ask him to photograph the ID plates on those he has to see if he has a Mk VE/3 plated turret.  He definitely has Mk V and VI.

The manager at Caboolture also provided me with a photocopy of another Aus Archives file (NAA: A705, 9/18/65) on Beaufort turrets which I will scan over the next few days and courier back.  Although titled Rearward defensive armament - Beaufort it also covers nose and wing guns on RAF and RAAF aircraft and is clearly marked as Part 1 of a larger file and includes pages in two locations saying all further pages must be filed in Part 2.  A check of Archives of the file control code says they have no Part 2.  Figures.... (mumble, mumble)

Processing the scans will be later but I did read much of the file on my way home.  It also has a very small number of photos which I can post.  Apparently the first Blenheim turret sent to Aus for the Beaufort program was a B1 Mk III with mod kit to make it a Mk IV.

Edited by Mi Tasol
clarity, correction of NAA file name, added file #
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  • 3 weeks later...

I have scanned and PDF'd the NAA file 9/18/65 Part 1 Rearward defensive armament - Beaufort.  Despite the title it also covers wing and nose guns.

 

It is not available from the NAA site.  If anyone wants a copy please PM me and I will send you a copy by email or dropbox.

 

Unfortunately there was originally a part one and part two of this file but the NAA now only admit to having one part - see below.  If anyone is in Canberra it would be nice to know if the part they hold is part two which will only have files dated after 31 Dec 43 in it.

p?i=70d83a0a60acc0f55b1a4cfd240bd07f

Note the NAA's date range above of 1940-44 is meaningless.  I have 11 pages of Wirraway files (WITH the correct dates on the covers of those I have checked) that the NAA date as 1800, 1896, 1903, etc.  Also my scans are far more legible than NAA scans.  All these files are out of copyright so everyone is free to redistribute them at their leisure.

p?i=8d35fc8bc808a521f063c7e763feda6a

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If anyone knows of a free site where I can post the complete above file please advise and I will.

 

I will post to http://archive.org/ as soon as I work out how.  The file will be titled Rearward defensive armament - Australian Beaufort Part 1.

Edited by Mi Tasol
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  • 2 weeks later...

Restored Blenheim/Beaufort turret photos for those interested.  These turrets, with minor variations, were used in Beauforts, Blenheims, Bolingbrokes, Ansons and Battles.

Images courtesy of the Shrine of Remembrance, Melbourne, Vic. Australia. 

Photographer Vlad Bunyevich

https://www.shrine.org.au/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine_of_Remembrance

If you download these please retain the above credits with the photos

p?i=a32c81f4179ce96ad3fd2456f65ecd2f

 

p?i=7200b407086aa37130fb19ae931a0b94

 

p?i=92f9a59b7d2a2961ca46b5cf604e47b8

 

p?i=648797912ed00d67ef5ea153c237ea7f

p?i=015767ec3b770e08b7d084e5423595cb

p?i=be10ce0da79c128dea5153ff94918e96

 

p?i=2d3902605ce8f682748953b11ca747bf

 

p?i=6cf67fd44f246bc85416e3cd94a7b321

 

p?i=d7d82d6c633c451904439c8ee18b7819

Edited by Mi Tasol
1 Spelling error. 2 Replaced photos
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No they are not.  I don't know what went wrong but I will repost them in a couple of days - I am currently unwell and posted those when I felt like I was recovering. Obviously I was wrong and today I am not in any shape to intelligently correct them.

When I am better recovered I will insert the credit details in each photo and repost - hopefully correctly.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...

I have just finished scanning some pages from a second copy of the Beaufort Descriptive manual and, inserted in front of the manual just before the title page, there is a two page document titled STI 86 (Misc) Rescue markings that applies to the RAAF Beauforts.

 

STAGE II  MARKINGS 
BEAUFORT (External)

 

1. Rear Turret Starboard side - a notice "RELEASE OTHER SIDE" in 1" letters marked.

Port side - a notice ''RELEASE GUNNER AT DOOR" in 1 in. letters with a 2" arrow pointing. from the notice to the door.

2. Rear Entrance: . The periphary of the doors to the marked with the broken band ( 1" x 1/2" spaced 12" apart ).  A notice "PULL DOWN YELLOW"
(or "RED" if applicable ) "HANDLE FOR EMERGENCY RESCUE AND FIRE EXTINGUISHER".
'
The release handle is to be painted in the appropriate colour.

 

Does anyone want me to post it?  If so as scans or text like above (or both)?

Edited by Mi Tasol
grammar
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  • 7 months later...

Hi all,

 

With reference to my post of 21.03.21, I just wanted to let you know that having seen the Air Diagram for the Bristol BI Mk V,  I am now 100% sure that what the Australians referred to as the Blenheim Mk V turret (which does not make sense as the Blenheim Mk V sported a completely new design of turret) is in fact the Bristol BI Mk V.

 

This differed from the earlier BI Mk IV in that the upper part of the cupola was no longer retractable and that the gun firing mechanism was changed from electro-hydraulic to fully electric with solenoid operated rear sear release units on the Brownings. 

 

Cheers,

 

Walter

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I forgot to add that the RAAF under defense gun pod has provision for both the 303 and the US 30 cal Brownings.  If I get time I will see if the parts are Bristol or DAP designed (from the part numbers).  First priority is to finish scanning the 1800 odd pages before the weekend.

Edited by Mi Tasol
clarity
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  • 2 weeks later...

Re the Under Defense Gun.  There is only one part that differs between the US and UK gun installations and that is a mounting bolt.  The UK gun uses a Bristol Standard bolt and the US gun uses part number 131994 which is a Bristol part number.

 

Re the "Blenheim Mk V" turret in the Aus Beauforts.

From the RAF Beaufort II manual.  This totally supports Walters conclusion a couple of posts above as both the UK and Au Beauforts use the same turret from all I have seen.

p?i=fb9ea37ce7158df98ba3e5cef5570135

 

The other turret in the RAF manual is shown below

p?i=ac6a5eea5e2b05ad4dce3e39d439cc7f

 

And the other gun installations from the RAF manual.  Again the RAAF install appears identical.  The safety cam that is referenced shows up nicely in one of the RAAF external photos posted earlier by someone

p?i=65b96bf14105a1bd8d3522347f4e6613

 

Edited by Mi Tasol
typo
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  • 2 months later...

For those interested in the upper defence gun on the Aus Beauforts here are a couple of photos I took in the 70s.  If I find more shots I will add them later.

 

The gimbal is the same as used on the two nose guns

 

p?i=7cc4e0ced299605468fd1f032d69e922

 

p?i=b872d4730f6eed43f89440e3996f6b7f

 

p?i=f85989480c642a65a0b686cb2fd681e5

 

p?i=542d22271e26dc8b6a2395c0dc9a3c05

 

 

p?i=5faf373d01a2e410bd88e5c533b67f45

 

 

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