Mi Tasol Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 Geoffrey is correct - I had the date wrong on 42.02.07 178 Never went into production in UK entry AND it was out of order. I will correct the original post to read Type 1 Mk II turret (two Brownings) 42.01.07 178 Never went into production in UK 41.05.05 227 Satisfactory in most respects 41.01.11 208 Needs work 40.07.22 204 Vast improvement over 2 Vickers guns and highly recommended Obviously I had sorted by page number order instead of date order. My apologies. After checking out the RAAF file I found a couple of interesting items. The Beaufort Mk IV specification is shown on the next page to be Beaufort Mk V. Page 187 specified that the Beaufort Mk V would have two Browning .303 guns in either a Blenheim Mk V or Beaufort Mk II turrets. We know that in fact the Mk V, VI and VII all have Mk I/IE turrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) On Feb 20 I noted I have now scanned the Aus Beaufort repair manual and it is so old it only shows the British fin (vertical stab) and only the Mk 1 turret mount so no help on how high the Mk IV/V/VI turret was lifted. It is interesting to note that the RAAF Beaufort Repair Manual is the first edition and dated May 1944 and that by May 1st, 1944, 626 of the 700 Beauforts had been delivered, A9-626 was issued to 100 squadron and collided with A9-627 (delivered May 2nd) over Wewak in PNG. These were the last Beauforts to be actually issued to a combat unit. A9-628 and subsequent went to 5AD (air depot) and then most went from 5AD to scrap. (Source Beaufort A9-600 to A9-699 NAA File # 3003632 Edited March 8, 2021 by Mi Tasol Graphic missing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 From the one RAAF Beaufort Manual I have: Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 (edited) Your copy of RAAF 294 is the second edition and a cleaner copy than my second edition. The first edition only covers the Mk I turret and the figure 7 in the 2nd edition labelled Mk IE is in fact the Mk I turret diagram as shown from figure 7 in the first edition. The Mk IE has the second (vertical) guns mounts on the left side of the gun cradle hiding the mounts for first gun. You will note in your figure 6 the Mk IE has a cutout in the armour plate to take the second gun whereas in both figure 7's the Mk I has a finger sticking down on the left side of the plate. The slot in the top of the blind is also considerably different. Edited March 8, 2021 by Mi Tasol clarity 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 (edited) Not shown is that the Mk IE turret cupola has saddles which hold the transparencies in place. Somewhere I have photos of this but I cannot find them. Note the little saddles joining the panels - these are both internal and external Note also the additional rib each side as well which must have made this very cramped for the gunner. Edited March 10, 2021 by Mi Tasol 1. found photo. Added text. 2 added second photo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 Just added anther book to my library, A bird's eye view of the Beaufort, 2nd Ed 1944, and attached is the turrets page - pretty bare. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Whilst perusing the IWM site, looking at Beaufort photos, I found this one. It's not a rarity but it's the first time I've seen a large sized one. It shows the Daimler turret with one Vickers gun. Notice that it shows the right-hand gun, the one that was mounted on it's side. Chris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) Interestingly the photo showing the rail in the porthole to stop gunner shooting own wing. Also what looks like armour under the door. A bit strange seeing the door with the porthole is made of 1/8 ply. Also I have never seen any photos or documents showing the "tube" ??? on the top of the transparent side panel on a Mk I or IE turret. It is not a Mk IE as there is no slot in the blind for the second (vertical) gun. As you can see in the photos and diagrams above the Aus built turrets did not have this tube. I do not know if the British Mk IE turrets had the additional internal structure and saddles joining the transperancies but if so those are another indication that it it a Mk I. I just found this photo of the Mk IV VI or later turret in the RAAF Museum Edited March 18, 2021 by Mi Tasol correct Mk 4 to Mk 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick b Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 4 hours ago, Mi Tasol said: Interestingly the photo showing the rail in the porthole to stop gunner shooting own wing. Also what looks like armour under the door. A bit strange seeing the door with the porthole is made of 1/8 ply. Instead of it being armour plate could it not just be a reinforcement plate in order to allow the fitting of the gun mount internally? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 What's the "ridge" on top, between the mast and the side gunner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Folding DF loop - or rather diamond? Looks like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Shown in the open position on this photo (last Australian production airframe) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 On 3/17/2021 at 5:18 PM, mick b said: Instead of it being armour plate could it not just be a reinforcement plate in order to allow the fitting of the gun mount internally? Mike It may be a repair but the gun mount is a fork that fits into a hole in a wooden beam joining the frames in front of and behind the door so that is unlikely though not impossible. This diagram is from the Descriptive Manual and shows the RH installation. The LH only differs in being longer and to allow for the lower door panel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Sinclair Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 On 06/03/2021 at 14:40, Mi Tasol said: As mentioned above there are a number of files on this subject in Melbourne (Australia) Hopefully someone in that area can look them up and photograph the pages. Paying NAA to do this is expensive and the output is often what is politely called sub standard. (Snip list from 6 March) Report on the 7 files mentioned. Series MP287/1 Control 3825 ID 485463 Notes Secret: Notes on multiple gun power operated turret. US Maxon model 107 turret. Series MP407/24 Control 32 ID 3345778 Notes Beaufort 1 - Gun Turret Mark 1 - Descriptive notes [0.50 cms]. 18 page report on basic operation and troubleshooting with 11 diagrams. Series MP407/11 Control 28 ID 456686 Notes Beaufort 1 - Gun Turret Mark 1 - descriptive notes [not dated] Report is copy of MP407/24 32, but includes specification page and 3 extra diagrams Series MP1117/1 Control A7366 ID 3282659 Notes Wooden Fairing MK VE/3 gun turret [1 plan and 9 attachments]. Engineering diagrams for upper fuselage conversion to unarmed mark IX freighter version. Missing since 1989 Series MP407/11 Control 29 ID 456667 Notes Beaufort I and II under defence turret single gun [not dated] [missing] Series MP407/11 Control 30 ID 456668 Notes Blenheim I - gun turret Mark 4 - dismantling notes sections 1 and 2 [not dated] [missing] Series MP407/11 Control 31 ID 456684 Notes Blenheim I and 4 - gun turret Mark 4 - descriptive notes [not dated] [missing] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) Will see if I can get to the NAA here in Melbourne. This may take a few days due to my own schedule, and the need to book these items for viewing. At least that was pre-COVID. Not sure what the go is now. In the meantime, this may be of interest? https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=164127&isAv=N Directorate of Armament - Beaufort aircraft - Gunnery Equipment, Series no. A705, Control Symbol 9/18/114, Item ID 164127 This entry has a digital copy and can be downloaded as PDF (252 pages) Edit: a Basic Search at the National Archives of Australia - "Beaufort, 1942 -1945' - gives you 2189 items, several with digital copies available. Now there's a couple of days exploring! Edited March 18, 2021 by Peter Roberts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Sinclair Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 To make the file status clear. Series MP407/24 Control 32, copy of report and diagrams taken, Series MP407/11 Control 28 copy of additional information taken. The other files listed above do not have information on Beaufort Turrets. I further assume the other files mentioned in earlier messages as examined are also excluded from any potential new list of Melbourne files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Peter Roberts said: Will see if I can get to the NAA here in Melbourne. This may take a few days due to my own schedule, and the need to book these items for viewing. At least that was pre-COVID. Not sure what the go is now. Thanks Peter, that sounds most interesting - Geoffrey Sinclair has provided more detail on the items and item Series MP407/11 Control 28 ID 456686 Notes Beaufort 1 - Gun Turret Mark 1 - descriptive notes [not dated] Report is copy of MP407/24 32, but includes specification page and 3 extra diagrams would be of great interest to solving some of the questions in this discussion. The item Directorate of Armament - Beaufort aircraft - Gunnery Equipment, Series no. A705, Control Symbol 9/18/114, Item ID 164127 is discussed further back in this discussion and unfortunately stops right where the new turret(s) (Mk VE/3 and/or Mk VI) would have started to be discussed. I suspect that VE/3 was the experimental or prototype designation for the Mk VI but then again the RAAF liked to call the Spitfire the Capstan and the Beaufighter the BD43 and record US serial numbers with the - changed to a / (eg 41-2345 would be recorded as 41/2345), supposedly to confuse the enemy, so maybe the Mk VE/3 was something totally different. Edited March 19, 2021 by Mi Tasol clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 22 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said: Report on the 7 files mentioned..... Thank you sir, that clarifies things considerably 11 hours ago, Peter Roberts said: Edit: a Basic Search at the National Archives of Australia - "Beaufort, 1942 -1945' - gives you 2189 items, several with digital copies available. Now there's a couple of days exploring! When you explore further you will find the NAA catalogers have a "she'll be right mate" attitude to accuracy in cataloging and some of those items are Beaufighter such as Air Board Agenda 3742 (RAAF) - Supply of 20 millimetre shell for cannon fitted to Beaufort aircraft Item 24398123 and you will find the original document clearly says Beaufighter. The earliest files on the Beaufort go back to 1938. Peter Dunn at ozatwar.com has several files he sells for a small fee that correct the NAA's entries for specific groups of files. He earns every cent that he gets from those sales as I know how much work it takes. Over two years ago I sent the NAA a list of some 200 files with incorrect dates (because searching by date separates out a lot of irrelevant files) and they are yet to be corrected. For example open File 165806 which they date as from 1800 to 1800 whereas the cover of the file cover clearly says 8 October 1955. Three of the Beaufort files in the list are MP450/1 52 manufacture of Beaufort Aircraft Taurus engines in Australia Location: Melbourne 1800 - 1800 File 458326 MP450/1 82 Beaufort Torpedo Bomber Production in Australia 1943 Location: Melbourne 1800 - 1800 File 458291 MP450/1 164 RAAF contract-specification No. for Beaufort Aircraft Location: Melbourne 1800 - 1800 File 458085 Checking File 458326 today just now I find that it is still dated 01 Jan 1800. There none so blind as those who will not see and none so lazy as those who cannot be dismissed for incompetence. Edited March 19, 2021 by Mi Tasol clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 It just goes to show how long the "planning and development" stage can take! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 @Geoffrey Sinclair has sent me some turret photos to post here: Chris, for Geoffrey 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Lindekens Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 What a fascinating thread this is! I have copies of the illustrations in AP2768B which covers the Bristol turret that was used on the Avro Anson. I am missing the title page but the turret described is identical to the Bristol Type BI Mk IV which is the twin Browning turret used on the Blenheim. Identical except for the fact that the upper part of the cupola, which on the Blenheim is retractable, is fixed to the lower ring in the upmost position. My guess is that this could well be designated the Bristol Type BI Mk V, which would then explain as to why the Australians refer to it as the "Blenheim Mk V turret" (and which of course has nothing to do with the Blenheim Mk V aircraft). It is fascinating to see how this turret was then further developed for the Australia built Beauforts. AP1659B covers Bristol Gun Turrets and I only just realized that the "Beaufort I Centre Gun Turret Mk I" actually has its single VGO gun mounted on its side, ie with the magazine in a vertical position, whereas in the Blenheim I Gun Turret Mk I (single Lewis gun) and the Blenheim I Gun Turret Mk III (single VGO gun) the gun is mounted upright. I found that quite strange because otherwise those turrets are very similar in construction. The turret shown in the IWM photo in Dogsbody's March 17th post is actually that "Beaufort I Centre Gun Turret Mk I". Hope the above is of interest. Cheers, Walter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 On 3/19/2021 at 9:16 AM, Mi Tasol said: There none so blind as those who will not see and none so lazy as those who cannot be dismissed for incompetence. Sorry mate, you'll have to wait until they've finished re-cataloguing the backlog of Fremantle Gazette articles, after they've done the World's News. /runs Yes this is a tongue in cheek reply - I suspect they have plenty more records to do than the specific ones we're more likely to be interested in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 The National Archives do not always spend their money wisely, https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-22/palace-letters-whitlam-dismissal-archives-cost-revealed/12803006 The 'true cost' may be as much as 5 million! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Sinclair Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 Sorry about this, but it is the only contact method available to me and probably a lot more people, for Mi Tasol, It's only me. Response to even a 1 Kb email to Mi Tasol, for about the last 24 hours, (actual address removed) The following message to <...> was undeliverable. The reason for the problem: 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 554-'5.2.2 <...>: Recipient address rejected: Quota exceeded, mailbox is full.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted March 22, 2021 Author Share Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) Thanks Geoffrey I will pass that to my IP. Your four other mails got through okay so it has me beat. I will PM a Yahoo email address in the morning - I have not used it for some time so I will need to send it a couple of test messages (small and large) to see if it still works Edited March 22, 2021 by Mi Tasol Spelling error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now