Beaufort Turrets

[Peter Roberts]

A fascinating thread here, thank you. To add a little to this, and hopefully not derail it, I recently researched an article on 100 Squadron RAAF and came across the following:

 

'The Mark VIII was possibly the definitive DAP Beaufort, with 520 built and given RAAF serials from A9-181 through to A9-700; these aircraft had a significantly deeper rear fuselage to accommodate a higher mounted dorsal turret. In all 700 Beauforts were built in Australia, the even numbered serials coming from Mascot and odd numbered serials coming from Fishermen’s Bend.'

 

If correct, it would seem that the turrets had an impact on the design of the aircraft. I am not familiar with the Beaufort, but based on this there may be implications for doing an RAAF DAP Mk VIII from the upcoming kits, not just with the turrets.

[stevehnz]

From what I can see, the DAP Mk VIII had the same turret as the RAFs IIa, similar looking anyway.

Steve.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

3 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

In all 700 Beauforts were built in Australia, the even numbered serials coming from Mascot and odd numbered serials coming from Fishermen’s Bend.

I can add from A705 9/18/108 page 23 stating mark VIII were being fitted with Blenheim V turrets, all earlier ones had mark 1E., undated but refers to meetings in June and September 1942, while mark VIII production did not begin until November 1942.  So I would treat it as early mark VIII standard.

 

The first 5 Beauforts were built at Fishermans bend, then it went even/odd Mascot/Fishermans bend

[Graham Boak]

Given that a deeper fuselage would have had the effect of restricting the full field of fire from the turret (compared to retaining the original fuselage) fitting this would seem to lose one major advantage of the new turret.  If it was a matter of reducing drag then it would have  been as if not more effective to increase the fuselage depth ahead of the turret.  Another factor however could be a requirement for greater stability (more side area aft of the aerodynamic centre) which clearly was a consideration in the fitting of a larger fin.

 

I think I'd like to see several good photos of this installation and the respective rear fuselages.  A rather more specific description would also help.

[Sydhuey]

6 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

I can add from A705 9/18/108 page 23 stating mark VIII were being fitted with Blenheim V turrets, all earlier ones had mark 1E., undated but refers to meetings in June and September 1942, while mark VIII production did not begin until November 1942.  So I would treat it as early mark VIII standard.

 

The first 5 Beauforts were built at Fishermans bend, then it went even/odd Mascot/Fishermans bend

I think you (or the document) are getting turret designations mixed up , the turret from the Blenheim was the Bristol B1 Mk V and the later turret fitted to late Beauforts is the VE, Blenheim V's ran the Bristol Mk X , never fitted to a Beaufort a completely different turret with guns mounted on each side of turret not side by side in middle.  

Edited February 15, 2021 by Sydhuey

[Mi Tasol]

Good day Peter Roberts.

Re A9-181 through to A9-700; these aircraft had a significantly deeper rear fuselage to accommodate a higher mounted dorsal turret. This is one of those statements that is both 100% right and 100% wrong.

Except in the turret area the fuselage depth is exactly the same as on the earlier aircraft.  The deeper section is an insert above the top longerons and under the turret itself that raises the turret base so that the turret itself sits higher giving it a wider arc of fire.  From memory this section is about 8 inches high but I will be able to give you an exact answer within a couple of weeks when I scan the appropriate Australian manual.

The attached from the Brit repair manual is probably identical but until I scan the Aus manual I am only guessing.  The Blenheim turret, like in the Aus Mk VIII, is the upper diagram.  many of the Aus modifications were similar to, but not identical to, the Brit modifications.  For example the gun elevating cylinder in the Australian Mk IE turrets is an Australian designed part.  The changes may be as simple as changing the material a part was made from (yes that does require a new part number in certain circumstances), or be more complex.

 

 

[Mi Tasol]

11 hours ago, Sydhuey said:

I think you (or the document) are getting turret designations mixed up , the turret from the Blenheim was the Bristol B1 Mk V and the later turret fitted to late Beauforts is the VE, Blenheim V's ran the Bristol Mk X , never fitted to a Beaufort a completely different turret with guns mounted on each side of turret not side by side in middle.  

I think it is somewhat more complex than than that.

 

Geoffrey Sinclair on Friday quoted RAAF files as below

RAAF Air Member for Engineering and Maintenance report 191 for week ending 22 September 1943,
Resident Technical Officer Report, Beaufort Division,

Blenheim Mk.VI/3 Turret.  Installation of Mk.VE/3 Turret [in Beaufort] is being carried out by Servicing Department and is well in hand.  At present interruption tests are being carried out. and he added [Note the two designations used for the turret.]

 

Given I have seen dozens of Mk V and VI turrets - Hughes Trading in Coburg had at least 100 mixed turrets in the 70s-90s - and I have never seen a Mk VE nameplate on any of those I suspect that the Mk VE was the designation of the experimental turrets and Mk VI the designation for the production turrets.  This also make sense in the fact that no-one has mentioned the VA thru VD turrets as far as I am aware.  The link at the NAA that I posted this morning may solve this riddle.  I am away from home for a few days so I cannot read the file (smartphones and crappy scans are not compatible).

 

The same E explanation for the Mk IE turret is also likely as again I have seen no evidence of IA thru ID turrets.  The Aus Mk IE is a different turret to the British IE turret as the elevation ram has a different part number as do several other parts.  The reason for this may be as simple as a change of material in one component and the consequential effects of that.  And yes that does require a change of part number if any component is not 100% interchangeable.

[Sydhuey]

Yes I know that i was just stating the turret was not from a Blenheim V, but the turret is a Mk V version as used in the Blenheim

[Peter Roberts]

4 hours ago, Mi Tasol said:

Good day Peter Roberts.

Re A9-181 through to A9-700; these aircraft had a significantly deeper rear fuselage to accommodate a higher mounted dorsal turret. This is one of those statements that is both 100% right and 100% wrong.

Except in the turret area the fuselage depth is exactly the same as on the earlier aircraft.  The deeper section is an insert above the top longerons and under the turret itself that raises the turret base so that the turret itself sits higher giving it a wider arc of fire.  From memory this section is about 8 inches high but I will be able to give you an exact answer within a couple of weeks when I scan the appropriate Australian manual.

The attached from the Brit repair manual is probably identical but until I scan the Aus manual I am only guessing.  The Blenheim turret, like in the Aus Mk VIII, is the upper diagram.  many of the Aus modifications were similar to, but not identical to, the Brit modifications.  For example the gun elevating cylinder in the Australian Mk IE turrets is an Australian designed part.  The changes may be as simple as changing the material a part was made from (yes that does require a new part number in certain circumstances), or be more complex.

 

 

 

Thank you - I found the comment regards a 'deeper rear fuselage' a bit strange so appreciate your insights there. 

[Graham Boak]

Agreed, that makes it clearer.  I went looking at pictures of Mk.VIIIs, and had almost convinced myself that there was a change in the fuselage section aft of the turret: that the main rear fuselage structure was unchanged but the top taper providing improved fire downwards was indeed taller at the turret.  I say "almost" convinced as not all photos seemed to show this.  This could be done without  restricting the improved field of fire.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Australian Archives A705 9/18/114.  What's in a name? That which we call a turret. By any other name would turn as sweet?

 

Page 228, 5 May 1941, Modified type I Mk. II turret for Beaufort in Britain.  Plus F.N. 61A under defence
Page 226 notes the Bristol Turret type IV mark IE from April/May 1940
Page 207, 11 January 1941, modified Turret type I Mk. II, page 203 from 22 July 1940.  Browning gun conversion.
Page 199 T9541 (2nd Australian production) only fitted with 1 wing gun, and implies the others that arrived in the Far East had two.
Page 186, 27 December 1941, Mark V specification, Turret guns, 2 Browning 0.303 inch mark II* in either Blenheim mark V or Beaufort mark II turrets.
Page 181, 11 December 1941 (10 Beauforts officially built to end December), Beaufort mark IE turrets with 2 Vickers G.O. guns, to be fitted to at most the first 60 aircraft.
Page 177, 7 January 1942, Beaufort mark II turret never reached production stage in Britain.  Installation of mark V turret requires major modification to airframe, earliest production in A9-181.  Recommend ordering 90 Blenheim mark V turrets from Britain to supplement planned local production.
Page 174, 8 January 1942, 20 Blenheim B.I mark IV turrets received.  Beaufort and Blenheim turrets will be tested concurrently.
Page 160, 4 March 1942, Beaufort mark I turrets, conversions sets to mark IE and Blenheim IV and V turrets.  Beaufort mark I 10 stranded in New York, 12 received 22 January.  Conversion sets to Beaufort mark IE, 25 received 22 January, 17 more expected soon.
Page 131, 29 August 1942 (106 Beauforts officially built to end August)  A9-1 to 20 with mark I turrets, to be modified to mark IE, Mark IE fitted from A9-21 up to 180.  Blenheim mark V to be fitted from A91-181 on.  Flight tests have been carried out to determine aerodynamic qualities of a Blenheim turret elevated an additional 8 inches.
Page 124, 16 June 1942, Bristol Beaufort with Bristol Turret Type IV Mark IE.
Page 123, 8 October 1942, interior of Beauforts between crew stations and turrets to be painted with one coat of Cockpit Green zinc chromate primer only, ceasing applying a top coat of Cockpit Green lacquer.
Page 117 Bristol Turrets Type B1 Mark V.
Page 113, 23 October 1942 (159 Beauforts officially built to end October). 0.5 inch wing guns from A9-351 on, 200 degree turret traverse from A9-181 on, 300 degree A9-351 on, 360 degree A9-451 on.
Page 81, 3 February 1943 (227 Beauforts officially built to end January), Beaufort mark VIII specification, aircraft 181 to 700, Twin Browning Blenheim mark V Turret.  A9-181 to 350 twin Vickers 0.303 inch nose guns.  A9-351 to 700 Browning 0.5 inch nose gun.  Wing guns, Browning 0.303 inch A9-181 to 350, 0.5 inch A9-351 to 700.
Page 34, 9 June 1943, Modifications Committee Minutes lists a number of modifications and their incorporation.
Page 32, 12 July 1943, 0.5 inch nose gun not required.
Page 31, 22 July 1943, no further action on 0.5 inch nose gun.
Page 30, 8 July 1943 (361 Beauforts officially built to end June), A9-351 onwards not to be fitted with under defence gun
Page 21, 10 April 1943, list of Beauforts in service or awaiting write off with mark IE turrets, total of 144 aircraft, lowest serial A9-1, highest A9-180.

[Sydhuey]

Excellent time line for Beaufort mod/upgrades, no such thing as .5 turret and no need for the .5 nose gun, simplifies the what if scenario a bit.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Sydhuey

[gingerbob]

On 2/16/2021 at 1:35 AM, Mi Tasol said:

Geoffrey Sinclair on Friday quoted RAAF files as below

RAAF Air Member for Engineering and Maintenance report 191 for week ending 22 September 1943,
Resident Technical Officer Report, Beaufort Division,

Blenheim Mk.VI/3 Turret.  Installation of Mk.VE/3 Turret [in Beaufort] is being carried out by Servicing Department and is well in hand.  At present interruption tests are being carried out. and he added [Note the two designations used for the turret.]

 

Given I have seen dozens of Mk V and VI turrets - Hughes Trading in Coburg had at least 100 mixed turrets in the 70s-90s - and I have never seen a Mk VE nameplate on any of those I suspect that the Mk VE was the designation of the experimental turrets and Mk VI the designation for the production turrets.  This also make sense in the fact that no-one has mentioned the VA thru VD turrets as far as I am aware.  The link at the NAA that I posted this morning may solve this riddle.  I am away from home for a few days so I cannot read the file (smartphones and crappy scans are not compatible).

 

OK, this has been bugging me since Geoffrey's above-quoted document was mentioned.  First of all, I'm new to the wonderful world of Bristol turrets (turrets for aircraft Bristol), so be gentle.

 

If there's no other evidence for this "VE/3" turret, could it not be that the typist (the original one) accidentally struck 'E' when he was supposed to strike 'I' (it is a simple left vs right error, which happens- at least to me- quite regularly).  In other words, could it be that the memo was actually supposed to read:

Quote

"Blenheim Mk.VI/3 Turret.  Installation of Mk.VI/3 [in Beaufort] is being carried out..."

 

Now, I'm quite prepared to be shot down, but please don't tell me, "Oh, such an error would have been corrected, because..."- I've read plenty of official memos of the period, so I know that errors slipped through.

 

bob

 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by gingerbob

[Mi Tasol]

At this stage GingerBobs comment makes a lot of sense and he may well have hit the nail on the head but until I get a chance to read that Directorate of Armament - Beaufort aircraft - gunnery equipment  NAA file # 164127 when I get back home I will still be guessing. 

It is certainly as viable a theory as my E for experimental.  I will see what other references there are to the VE turret that file and if it is a one off I will have to side with Bob.

[Mi Tasol]

Quick notes

 

I have now scanned the Aus Beaufort repair manual and it is so old it only shows the British fin (vertical stab) and only the Mk 1 turret mount so no help on how high the Mk IV/V/VI turret was lifted.

 

I have done a quick look through the Directorate of Armament - Beaufort aircraft - gunnery equipment file and the last entry in this file is July 24th 1943 when they were delivering aircraft with serials in the 380 range leaving about 320 to be built.

 

I have searched for other files on the Beaufort turret but nothing found that has been digitized yet.  This one might be of use but I am over 1500km from Canberra and the NAA is probably closed anyway.

Title  Beaufort aircraft - Armament installation - operational requirements and policy

Contents date range  1944 - 1945

Series number A705
Control symbol  9/18/456

Item ID  164174

Location  Canberra

Access status  Open

 

 

I did however find and download this one - I will read as soon as practical.  It does include some excellent photos and appears to be a defects file

 

Title  DTS [Directorate of Technical Services] - Beaufort aircraft - front nose guns

Contents range  1942 - 1944

Series number  A705

Control symbol  9/18/228

Item ID  164163

Edited February 20, 2021 by Mi Tasol
clarity

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Bristol Aircraft since 1910, C.H. Barnes, Beaufort II and V, B.IV Mark IE turrets with two K-guns at first, some Beaufort II with B.IV mark IE with twin Brownings, later aircraft had a modified Blenheim turret the B.I mark V, fixed cupola and twin Brownings.

 

Some early notes on turrets.

 

Beaufort Division report 61 (undated), Australian Turret plant making Mark VE/3 turret.

 

May/June 1940 as a result of the embargo the Australian order for 185 Beaufort gun turrets was cancelled, to be replaced by 2 sample turrets.  However in August 20 turrets were promised, 6 shipped in November and 4 in December.  Local turret manufacture set up costs estimated to be 135,000 pounds.

 

3 June 1941 probably only have 10 turrets for Beauforts, one of the 32 Blenheim mark III turrets in store borrowed to see if it can be used on a Beaufort.  (Mark III meant to be fitted to Battle gunnery trainers)

 

11 July 1941, Beaufort twin Vickers turrets to be sent until twin Browning Blenheim mark IV approved, parts to convert 12 single Vickers turrets into twin Vickers to be sent.

 

17 July 1941, Blenheim mark IV turret for twin Brownings.

 

22 July 1941, Britain testing Blenheim turrets in Beauforts, flying trials commencing and will be soon completed, success expected after which Beaufort turret manufacture will cease, Blenheim turrets will be used in Beauforts.

 

4 August 1941, Australia has 32 Blenheim mark III turrets, now being tested to see if they can be fitted to Beauforts.  Mark III and IV are considered similar so the modifications needed for a mark IV in a Beaufort will probably also apply to the mark III.

 

12 August 1941, Ministry of Aircraft production has formally approved fitting Bristol Gun Turrets type B.1 mark V Blenheim type to Australian Beauforts.  62 Beaufort I or IE turrets shipped or about to be shipped, all single gun types, plus conversion sets to twin gun.  In addition 20 adopted Blenheim type turrets, to be known as B.1 mark V section A.91 ready for despatch, chief modifications are armour plated electrical firing gear, interrupter gear and draft excluder.  Detailed drawing to be airmailed soon.

 

1 October 1941, turrets, Beaufort mark 1 single Vickers, Beaufort mark 1E twin Vickers, Beaufort mark 2 twin Browning, Blenheim mark 5 adopted from mark 4.  All Beaufort turret drawings received, no Blenheim ones.

 

18 October 1941, local work on Beaufort mark II turret (twin Brownings) dropped, production to be mark V.

 

19 December 1941, B IV mark I to be converted in Australia to twin gun Vickers.  5 lost at sea to be replaced, 16 from original order of 100 still to be shipped.

 

16 January 1942, 165 mark V turrets for Beauforts, as Australia sees position.  Beaufort mark I received 40, on water 34, awaiting shipment 6, outstanding 21, total 100.  Conversion sets for mark I, 0 received, 25 on water, packed 17, outstanding 58.  Blenheim mark IV, received 20.  Conversion sets for Blenheim mark IV, outstanding 20.  Blenheim mark V, 45 to be despatched in December.  Order placed for another 195 Blenheim Mark V turrets taking total order to 360.

 

27 February 1942, In Britain there are 45 Blenheim mark V turrets awaiting shipment, to be followed immediately by another 34, together with the 24 mark IV Australia will convert will give 90 plus 9 spares.  Eventual despatches will be 74 single gun Beaufort mark I with conversion set number 24 to 2 guns.  2 Beaufort mark IE to Singapore, 20 Blenheim mark IV with armour plate and electrical firing gear to be converted in Australia to Blenheim mark V.  276 Blenheim mark V turrets adapted for Beaufort aircraft (to be shipped?)

 

3 June 1942 War Cabinet Agendum 257/1942.  The plan is at aircraft 451 to change the engines from 1,200 to 1,700 HP, and the guns changed from 0.303 to 0.5.  The will be introduced in the same way the increase from 2 to 9 machine guns, adding radar etc. has been done.

 

10 July 1942, currently Beauforts to be using B.I Mark V turret, weighing 467 pounds, plus 150 pounds of armour, 44 pounds of guns, 133 pounds of ammunition (1,900 rounds), total weight 794 pounds, proposal to move to a 4 gun turret, with 500 rounds per gun, total weight 1,058 pounds.

 

15 July 1942, second batch of 90 Beauforts to be mark VII with mark IE turret for two Vickers Gas Operated guns.

 

28 July 1942, 89 Beauforts built to end July.  Locally made Mark IE turrets to be fitted to aircraft 91 to 180

 

5 August 1942, shipment of mark V turrets ongoing, order for 360 plus spares.  As major modifications are required to fit them to Beauforts Australia is making 90 mark IE as a temporary expedient.

 

19 September 1942, 26 B.4 mark IE turrets received from Britain, along with 74 B.4 mark I turrets plus parts to convert them to mark IE standard, all except 6 used in Beaufort production, these being used to fill requests for replacement turrets.

 

5 October 1942, 130 Beauforts built to end September 1942.  81 mark IE turrets converted from single to twin gun operation, 19 more to be converted.  75 Australian mark IE turrets delivered, Blenheim mark V turrets to be fitted from aircraft 181 onwards, prototype of modified Blenheim mark V turret, increasing rotation from 180 to 300 degrees now ready for trials, the raising of the turret above the level of the fuselage was causing disturbances on the fin control surfaces.

 

25 November 1942, 8 B.4 mark IE turrets have been delivered to the RAAF separate from those fitted to Beauforts, 2 are at Bairnsdale Vic, 1 at Wagga NSW, 2 at ANA Essendon Vic, 1 at Clyde Engineering NSW, 1 at 100 Squadron Laverton Vic and 1 at Williamtown NSW

 

23 December 1942, 394 Beaufort turrets have been shipped from Britain for Australia, some still en route, figure includes replacements for lost at sea.  Air Ministry want to consider turret contract to have ended.

 

21 May 1943 it was estimated it would cost 11,600 pounds to convert 58 Blenheim mark III turrets to mark V

 

Beaufort Mark V Appendix A equipment
B.IV Turret, 1 Vickers Gas Operated No.3 mk.I, 20 magazines of 60 or 100 rounds each, mk. IIIA reflector sight

 

Beaufort Mark VIII appendix A equipment
Turret type BI mk.V. 2 Browning guns with 1,900 rounds, reflector sight.

 

[dogsbody]

In the book British Aircraft Armament Vol.1, by R. Wallace Clark, 1993, I found this image:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Sydhuey]

Saw a photo of the twin VGO setup ,from the gunners position (looking aft) the L/H gun has the drum magazine horizontal on top , the R/H gun has it vertical on the R/H side, only way the guns can be close beside each other in the turret, single and twin VGO's didn't last long only first couple of Mk IA's an Mk II's had VGO' s soon went to the twin Brownings. 

[Mi Tasol]

Thank you Geoffrey, Dogsbody and SidHuey for the additional information.

I have done a quick read through the NAA file # 164127 looking for turret info I have produced these summary's which are in date order (reverse page order).  Note due to shoddy scanning some pages are out of order, some pages are duplicated and it is possible that some pages have not been scanned.

Note also that the AAEE reports near the back of the file cover more than one topic.

Of interest to some will be the Specification for the Beaufort Mk IV starting pg 181.  Includes a 2 Browning turret among other things.  I have not had time to assess it but I suspect that it is actually the Mk VIII spec.

 

There should be a second file on Beaufort turrets because the last entry in this one is July 24th 1943 around the time aircraft 380 to 390 (of 700) were delivered. 

Most of the files I have located at the NAA are in Melbourne, 2000 km from me so I will make a separate post about them.  Hopefully someone in Melbourne can look them up and photograph the pages.  Paying NAA to do this is expensive and the output is often what is politely called sub standard.  

To eliminate confusion between UK and US dates I have used ICAO dating YY.MM.DD and the layout is Date, Page #, Summary

 

Mixed turret options 

42.02.07 178 Turret options.  Beau Mk II turret NFG, APC to order 90 Blenhiem Mk V turrets asap.

 

Mk I turret

42.03.05 161 Ten turrets stuck in New York

42.08.29 132 Mk I turrets fitted to ac 1-20 to be converted to Mk I.E

 

Mk IE turret

40.07.25 202 Better but still major issues, gunner still cannot access the spare mags

42.03.05 161 Mk I to IE conversion kits, 25 recd Jan 22, 17 more dispatched from UK

42.07.12 149 Cable failures

42.08.29 132 Mk I.E turrets to be fitted to ac 21-180

43.03.26 76 Visit to GTP - Mk I.E turret armament trials

 

Type 1 Mk II turret (two Brownings)

42.01.07 178 Never went into production in UK (date corrected)

41.05.05 227 Satisfactory in most respects 

41.01.11 208 Needs work 

40.07.22 204 Vast improvement over 2 Vickers guns and highly recommended

 

Mk IV turret

42.01.08 175 First 20 B.I Mk IV turrets arrived

42.02.26 164 Mk IV turret sent to Richmond

???? 157 Install of Mk IV at Richmond cancelled

 

Mk V turret

42.08.29 132 Mk V turrets to be fitted to ac 181 on

43.03.26 76 Visit to GTP - Mk V turret mods discussed

 

Mk VE turret

43.06.09 42 Viewed turret at plant and instructed be fitted to an aircraft

 

Mk VI turret

No entries on this subject

 

50 cal turret

42.10.23 114 Viewed - would not enter production until about ac 700

 

Nose and wing gun installations - all

41.04.26 222 Single Vickers GO nose mounting - useable

41.04.17 220 Twin Browning FN UDG - useless as presented

41.01.20 217 Twin Browning nose guns - extensive mods required

41.12.19 197 Needs 4 303 in each wing, 2 traversing in nose, 4 fixed fwd firing under nose

42.02.10 167 20 mm in nose proposal

42.02.10 166 ditto

42.03.02 162-3 ditto

41.08.13 147 Gimbal mounted Vickers Guns RAF

42.07.08 140 Wing and single nose 50 cal mods

42.08.29 132 Twin VGO now in nose of 8 aircraft

42.10.08 123 Field mod to UDG - recommend made standard

???? 119 Compare 2 x VGO with 1 x 50 cal

???? 117 Viewed 1 remote controlled 50 in Beaufort nose controlled by bomb aimer

42.10.23 114 Ditto - lots of details.  Also wing gun details

42.11.09 113 50 cal to start @ 351

42.11.30 111 Approval of 50 cal in nose

42.12.28 99 Op units - 50 cal will considerably reduce effective defense of aircraft

43.01.02 97 If 50 cal and existing UDG cannot both be fitted 50 cal install to be scrapped

43.04.20 75 Replacement of VGO beam guns with Browning 303

43.03.26 76 50 cal mockup can be viewed on June 14th

43.07.12 33 50 cals in nose of Beaufort not required

43.07.12 26 DAP advise 50 cals not practical and reasons

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Mi Tasol
date corrected

[Mi Tasol]

As mentioned above there are a number of files on this subject in Melbourne (Australia) Hopefully someone in that area can look them up and photograph the pages.  Paying NAA to do this is expensive and the output is often what is politely called sub standard.

 

The last file is the most interesting and most relevant to this topic and even a smartphone camera can produce a better image than the NAA often does as is shown below.  If necessary PM me the images and I can return them clean with most if not all camera distortion removed so that you will be able to post them.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Mi Tasol
clarity

[dogsbody]

Member @Geoffrey Sinclair has sent me some photos to post here.

These are photos of photos. Some I have edited to get a closer view of the turrets.

 

Post #1:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Geoffrey

 

[dogsbody]

Turret Post #2:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Geoffrey

 

[Mi Tasol]

Thank you very much Geoffrey and Dogsbody

Excellent photos of the Mk I.E, V and final turrets (Mk V.E or Mk IV).  Somewhere someone has a manual or a photo of the ID tag on that last version turret.  I have three or four photos of the RAAF Museum turret but not of the plate.  I will dig those out and post later.

I have seen lots of Mk VI plates and my memory of the Mk VI is that it is a Mk V with some changes.  My memory said it had the remote rotation cylinder but your photos show it must have had the Mk V rotation system.  (the "joys" of old age)

 

One thing your photos show that I had never picked up on before is the much smaller fillet used with the later turret.  I guess the larger fillet would have fouled the bulge for the blind used on that turret.

 

Several photos also clearly show the steel bracket that stopped the waist gun shooting the wing.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Mi Tasol
clarity

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

On 06/03/2021 at 13:16, Mi Tasol said:

Type 1 Mk II turret (two Brownings)

41.05.05 227 Satisfactory in most respects 

41.01.11 208 Needs work 

40.07.22 204 Vast improvement over 2 Vickers guns and highly recommended

42.02.07 178 Never went into production in UK

 

Nose and wing gun installations - all

41.04.26 222 Single Vickers GO nose mounting - useable

41.04.17 220 Twin Browning FN UDG - useless as presented

41.01.20 217 Twin Browning nose guns - extensive mods required

41.12.19 197 Needs 4 303 in each wing, 2 traversing in nose, 4 fixed fwd firing under nose

42.02.10 167 20 mm in nose proposal

42.02.10 166 ditto

42.03.02 162-3 ditto

41.08.13 147 Gimbal mounted Vickers Guns RAF

42.07.08 140 Wing and single nose 50 cal mods

42.08.29 132 Twin VGO now in nose of 8 aircraft

42.10.08 123 Field mod to UDG - recommend made standard

???? 119 Compare 2 x VGO with 1 x 50 cal

???? 117 Viewed 1 remote controlled 50 in Beaufort nose controlled by bomb aimer

42.10.23 114 Ditto - lots of details.  Also wing gun details

42.11.09 113 50 cal to start @ 351

42.11.30 111 Approval of 50 cal in nose

42.12.28 99 Op units - 50 cal will considerably reduce effective defense of aircraft

43.01.02 97 If 50 cal and existing UDG cannot both be fitted 50 cal install to be scrapped

43.04.20 75 Replacement of VGO beam guns with Browning 303

43.03.26 76 50 cal mockup can be viewed on June 14th

43.07.12 33 50 cals in nose of Beaufort not required

43.07.12 26 DAP advise 50 cals not practical and reasons

 

Are the above lists meant to be occasionally out of date order?  Or are some of the dates incorrect?

 

APC Aircraft Production Commission

DAP Department of Aircraft Production.
GTP Gun Turret Production (factory)?
UDG Under Defence Gun

VGO Vickers Gas Operated machine gun

Edited March 7, 2021 by Geoffrey Sinclair
correct APC and UDG

[Mi Tasol]

Hi Geoffrey

I will check those dates out and get back to you.

GTP is Gun Turret Plant, the other abbreviations are correct.  The VGO is also known as the Vickers K gun.

The above is from a manual I do not have authority to share.

Below are photos of the turret in the RAAF Museum (RAAFM) at Pt Cook.  I could not find my photos so these ones are courtesy of the RAAFM

In among the photos from you and Dogsbody is one of a torpedo being loaded.

Here is another photo, unfortunately scanned from a photocopy, of the same subject but it has some good detail.