JWM Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Hi, I am trying to do a scratch model of Saro Lerwick. I am still very early however I am looking on photos and profiles thinking on scheme I will finish it. From I've read initially Lerwicks were used in 240 (four only)/ Production stopped with 21 and they served in 209 Sq, 422 Sq (RCAF) and finally in 4 OTU. Typically is show in TLS with Sky underside (209 sq) But here it is shown in TSS with alu bottom sides https://www.ebay.ie/itm/PP12-SARO-LERWICK-RAF-FDC-signed-Flt-Lt-GRAHAM-W-O-HUMPHREYS-/401718500081 L7257 from 4 OTUhas high contrast - that I can agree with Dk Green/DK Earth/Sky L7265 from 209 Squadron At Oban has very small contrast between colors - was it really TLS? For me it looks more like TSS Again L7257, but from time of service within 209 Sq (WQ-F) with high Fin Flash (that is what I want exactly to do) Note the "A" roundels on wings from top Similar "A" roundels are seen here (I borrowed the photo from @tonyot thread on RAF B-17) - this looks like more aerly since no Fin Flash at all and perhaps very narrow (if any) yellow on fuselage roundel. BTW - what is a light circle between roundel and "A"? The spacing between codes and roundels is much closer then in WQ-F (L 7257) above. The color of hull seems to have lighter nose part, then darker (?). Here the bottom color is very dark (could it be Night???) - there are roundels on bottoms , not present there if it is Sky So my question is - how it was with those colors, is there anything known about them for sure? regards J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Great project J-W,.... for what it is worth I`d say that TSS is the way to go,.... at first with silver undersides. As for the three colour upper wing roundel,.... this was introduced on Coastal Command aircraft in late 1939- early 1940 to help identify aircraft due to some accidental blue on blue incidents. It was also seen on Anson`s, Hudson`s, Sunderland`s etc but by the time of Dunkirk I think they had gone back to B Type roundels and applied yellow rings to the fuselage roundel and fin stripes. Cheers Tony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick b Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Paul Lucas’s On Target Special No 2 has a profile of WQ*Q in the TSS with sky undersides and he quotes AMO A.926 as being the reason for this as it was issued in December 1940. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Have a look at my web page http://hrmtech.com/SIG/coastal_cam.asp where the chronology of roundels and fin flashes is listed as best as I can with the information I have - e.g. 19th July 1940 is the probable date for the order to change from Type A to Type B upperwing roundels - of course I doubt if every aircraft was repainted the next day! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 2 hours ago, tonyot said: Great project J-W,.... for what it is worth I`d say that TSS is the way to go,.... at first with silver undersides. As for the three colour upper wing roundel,.... this was introduced on Coastal Command aircraft in late 1939- early 1940 to help identify aircraft due to some accidental blue on blue incidents. It was also seen on Anson`s, Hudson`s, Sunderland`s etc but by the time of Dunkirk I think they had gone back to B Type roundels and applied yellow rings to the fuselage roundel and fin stripes. Cheers Tony, many thanks! I am trying... 1 hour ago, mick b said: Paul Lucas’s On Target Special No 2 has a profile of WQ*Q in the TSS with sky undersides and he quotes AMO A.926 as being the reason for this as it was issued in December 1940. Mike Thank you! Is it with high fin flash? 1 hour ago, rossm said: Have a look at my web page http://hrmtech.com/SIG/coastal_cam.asp where the chronology of roundels and fin flashes is listed as best as I can with the information I have - e.g. 19th July 1940 is the probable date for the order to change from Type A to Type B upperwing roundels - of course I doubt if every aircraft was repainted the next day! That is a massive work you did, thank you very much for this info! Best regards J-W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick b Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 8 hours ago, JWM said: Thank you! Is it with high fin flash? No it is as per photo of it above with small fin flash. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 (edited) Hiya JW,.... not sure if these are any use,.... I`ve had these on my computer for years; Again,... good luck mate,... should look superb when finished, Cheers Tony EDIT,... Sorry,... didn`t realise you already had two of these ... ah well! Edited February 9, 2021 by tonyot 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted February 9, 2021 Author Share Posted February 9, 2021 Thank you - WQ-F with this large Fin Flash and A roundels on top of wings is exactly what I want to build. BTW - there is a strange shape of patches on nose , with narrow connection for darker one... Regards J-W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick b Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) On 2/9/2021 at 2:48 PM, JWM said: Thank you - WQ-F with this large Fin Flash and A roundels on top of wings is exactly what I want to build. BTW - there is a strange shape of patches on nose , with narrow connection for darker one... Regards J-W Just to add to the mix- in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides. It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels. Mike Edited February 12, 2021 by mick b 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted February 12, 2021 Author Share Posted February 12, 2021 5 hours ago, mick b said: Just to add to the mix- in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides. It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels. Thank you, the shadow shading can explain the strange pattern. However the A (so blue, white,red) upper roundels are well seen on one photo of WQ*F/L7257... Regards J-W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 I look forward to seeing the build thread it's a little known subject. Has anyone ever worked out what was wrong about the design. It didn't seem to handle any kind of flying, taking off or landing. Apart from a surprisingly small wing for a flying boat and a habit of losing a wing float I can't see anything wrong with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted February 21, 2021 Author Share Posted February 21, 2021 Today I have found two unknown so far to me photos of L7257 from time of serving in 4th OTU http://theinvergordonarchive.org.s3.amazonaws.com/1430.jpg http://theinvergordonarchive.org.s3.amazonaws.com/1402.jpg You may try also those lnks to web pages. http://www.theinvergordonarchive.org/picture/number1402.asp http://www.theinvergordonarchive.org/picture/number1430.asp Interesting is that the serial is apparently on a rectangle of a different shade (lighter) and the serial is black. It looks like a remains of previous paint scheme... Regards J-W 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 On 2/12/2021 at 12:20 PM, mick b said: Just to add to the mix- in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides. It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels. Mike On photos like this one And especially this one some areas has almost horizontal borders what really can be explained by a shadow shading result. I am curious if it can be truth? I am approaching in mine built to the painting time, so any discussion of pros and cons is most most welcomed! Regards J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 On 2/12/2021 at 11:20 AM, mick b said: Just to add to the mix- in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides. It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels. Mike 4 hours ago, JWM said: On photos like this one And especially this one some areas has almost horizontal borders what really can be explained by a shadow shading result. I am curious if it can be truth? I am approaching in mine built to the painting time, so any discussion of pros and cons is most most welcomed! Regards J-W Paul Lucas does quote an Air Diagram (1164 for twin engine monoplane flying boats) which gives this a basis in reality. The colours in the profile drawing would go some way towards explaining the second photo. I don't think shadow shading of the Temperate Sea scheme was discontinued until the end of August 1940. So it might be true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, rossm said: Paul Lucas does quote an Air Diagram (1164 for twin engine monoplane flying boats) which gives this a basis in reality. The colours in the profile drawing would go some way towards explaining the second photo. I don't think shadow shading of the Temperate Sea scheme was discontinued until the end of August 1940. So it might be true. Many thanks. So I think i will go this way (with sh. sh.) Regards J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 On 2/12/2021 at 12:20 PM, mick b said: Just to add to the mix - in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides. It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels. On 2/8/2021 at 9:46 PM, tonyot said: For what it is worth I`d say that TSS is the way to go,.... at first with silver undersides. As for the three colour upper wing roundel,.... this was introduced on Coastal Command aircraft in late 1939-early 1940 to help identify aircraft due to some accidental blue on blue incidents. It was also seen on Ansons, Hudsons, Sunderlands etc but by the time of Dunkirk I think they had gone back to B Type roundels and applied yellow rings to the fuselage roundel and fin stripes. So it looks that if you need to have a Lerwick in shadow shaded TSS camo with silver undersides, A roundels on upper surfaces, A1 on fuselage sides and a large fin flash the period should be (according to http://hrmtech.com/SIG/coastal_cam.asp) somewhere between 1st May and 19th July 1940. Go on, brother - it should look quite colourful this way. Cheers Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 15, 2021 Author Share Posted March 15, 2021 One more question: on beach gear colors. Looks on pre-war photos bright, maybe as natural aluminium. On photos of model builds in Net sometimes it is painted yellow. Wasn't it camouflaged in any way when war started? Regards J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 I think Sunderlands started with Aluminium - photos of the protoype look that way - then went to a medium grey. Have a look at https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188242 and 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adey m Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 9 hours ago, JWM said: One more question: on beach gear colors. Looks on pre-war photos bright, maybe as natural aluminium. On photos of model builds in Net sometimes it is painted yellow. Wasn't it camouflaged in any way when war started? Hi JWM, as far as Sunderlands were concerned by studying as many photos as I can, early wartime camouflaged Sunderlands have aluminium main beaching gear but the tail wheels blocks appear a darker colour, possibly red, with the wheels being aluminium colour. Later Sunderlands in the white scheme have a combination of aluminium main legs and sometimes a darker colour, possibly red. Post war Sunderlands in Singapore had red beaching gear. I cannot find proof of yellow beaching gear. There are photos of camouflaged Lerwicks at Cowes factory with aluminium beaching gear, you have one of these photos. I can see no reason why they would bother to camouflage the beaching gear, flying boat bases were difficult to hide from the air, and usually surrounded by other sorts of maritime clutter anyway. regards, adey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 15, 2021 Author Share Posted March 15, 2021 17 minutes ago, adey m said: There are photos of camouflaged Lerwicks at Cowes factory with aluminium beaching gear, you have one of these photos. Adey, thank you. The only reason for war time camouflaging was to keep all stuff in the dull colors as far as possible - as a rule. I will go for alu, I think. Regards J-W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adey m Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 On 08/02/2021 at 20:19, JWM said: what is a light circle between roundel and "A"? Hi JWM, regarding the circular patch on the fuselage that you refer to, this will be a gas detection patch, it was a yellowish colour and it would turn red I think if gas was present. Square or round gas detection patches were applied to many RAF aircraft at the beginning of the war as there was a real fear that the Germans would use gas as in the First World War. Fighters usually had them applied to the top of the port wing. Early Sunderlands had a large circular patch applied to the port side of the nose just in front of the cockpit. Returning to the subject of flying boat beaching gear colours I think it was a case of making them more visible to the handling crews rather than trying to hide them from an enemy aircraft. regards, adey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 15, 2021 Author Share Posted March 15, 2021 1 hour ago, adey m said: Early Sunderlands had a large circular patch applied to the port side of the nose just in front of the cockpit. Thanks, that I was supposing, but I had serious doubts: here the position is strange for this - on a side of fuselage below dorsal turret (which can be lowered) and when is lowered the gunner eyes cannot see it, and nobody else from crew cannot see it as well... Regards J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adey m Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 11 hours ago, JWM said: here the position is strange for this - on a side of fuselage below dorsal turret (which can be lowered) and when is lowered the gunner eyes cannot see it, and nobody else from crew cannot see it as well... Hi JWM, they appear to have been applied where crew or pilots would notice them, and usually on the port side, so adjacent to entry doors or on the wing adjacent to the cockpit access. I agree that it does not seem very obvious on the Lerwick though. Beauforts had them applied on top of the fuselage just aft of the dorsal turret. regards, adey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adey m Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 On 08/02/2021 at 20:19, JWM said: Here the bottom color is very dark (could it be Night???) - there are roundels on bottoms , not present there if it is Sky Hi JWM, I have never seen any evidence of Lerwicks having Night undersurfaces. The underwing roundels would be present on aircraft still having the factory aluminium undersurfaces. Night undersurfaces would generally be applied to aircraft operating at night, either on offensive operations or as night fighters, and they would not wear underwing roundels as these would be too visible if caught in searchlights. What might add confusion in the wearing of Night undersurfaces could be that RAF aircraft had one wing painted Night during the Phoney War period to aid recognition by ground observers. These then would have underwing roundels, such as on Spitfires. regards, adey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 16, 2021 Author Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, adey m said: I agree that it does not seem very obvious on the Lerwick though. Beauforts had them applied on top of the fuselage just aft of the dorsal turret. Thanks! - so in both cases it seems that the dorsal gunner was is duty about watching the chem weapon indicator... Regards J-W Edited March 16, 2021 by JWM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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