Jump to content

Saro Lerwick colours


JWM

Recommended Posts

Hi,

I am trying to do a scratch model of Saro Lerwick. I am still very early however I am looking on photos and profiles thinking on scheme I will finish it. From I've read initially Lerwicks were used in 240 (four only)/ Production stopped with 21 and  they served in 209 Sq, 422 Sq (RCAF) and finally in 4 OTU.

Typically is show in TLS with Sky underside (209 sq)

240px-Saro_Lerwick.png

But here it is shown in TSS with alu bottom sides

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/PP12-SARO-LERWICK-RAF-FDC-signed-Flt-Lt-GRAHAM-W-O-HUMPHREYS-/401718500081

 

 

L7257 from 4 OTUhas high contrast - that I can agree with Dk Green/DK Earth/Sky

28-2.jpg

L7265  from 209 Squadron At Oban has very small contrast between colors - was it really TLS? For me it looks more like TSS

28-1.jpg
Again L7257, but from time of service within 209 Sq (WQ-F) with high Fin Flash (that is what I want exactly to do)

29-1.jpg

large_CH_000864_1.jpg

Note the "A" roundels on wings from top

Similar "A" roundels are seen here (I borrowed the photo from @tonyot thread on RAF B-17) - this looks like more aerly since no Fin Flash at all and perhaps very narrow (if any) yellow on fuselage roundel. BTW - what is a  light circle between roundel and "A"?

The spacing between codes and roundels is much closer then in WQ-F (L 7257) above.

 

The color of hull seems to have lighter nose part, then darker (?).

DSCF8121.jpg

 

 

Here the bottom color is very dark (could it be Night???) - there are roundels on bottoms , not present there if it is Sky

22-1.jpg

 

 

 

So my question is  - how it was with those colors, is there anything known about them for sure? 

regards

J-W

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great project J-W,.... for what it is worth I`d say that TSS is the way to go,.... at first with silver undersides. As for the three colour upper wing roundel,.... this was introduced on Coastal Command aircraft in late 1939- early 1940 to help identify aircraft due to some accidental blue on blue incidents. It was also seen on Anson`s, Hudson`s, Sunderland`s etc but by the time of Dunkirk I think they had gone back to B Type roundels and applied yellow rings to the fuselage roundel and fin stripes.

Cheers

          Tony 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have a look at my web page http://hrmtech.com/SIG/coastal_cam.asp where the chronology of roundels and fin flashes is listed as best as I can with the information I have - e.g. 19th July 1940 is the probable date for the order to change from Type A to Type B upperwing roundels - of course I doubt if every aircraft was repainted the next day!

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, tonyot said:

Great project J-W,.... for what it is worth I`d say that TSS is the way to go,.... at first with silver undersides. As for the three colour upper wing roundel,.... this was introduced on Coastal Command aircraft in late 1939- early 1940 to help identify aircraft due to some accidental blue on blue incidents. It was also seen on Anson`s, Hudson`s, Sunderland`s etc but by the time of Dunkirk I think they had gone back to B Type roundels and applied yellow rings to the fuselage roundel and fin stripes.

Cheers

Tony, many thanks! I am trying...

1 hour ago, mick b said:

Paul Lucas’s On Target Special No 2 has a profile of WQ*Q in the TSS with sky undersides and he quotes AMO A.926 as being the reason for this as it was issued in December 1940.

 

Mike

Thank you!  Is it with high fin flash?

 

1 hour ago, rossm said:

Have a look at my web page http://hrmtech.com/SIG/coastal_cam.asp where the chronology of roundels and fin flashes is listed as best as I can with the information I have - e.g. 19th July 1940 is the probable date for the order to change from Type A to Type B upperwing roundels - of course I doubt if every aircraft was repainted the next day!

That is a massive work you did, thank you very much for this info! :)

 

 

Best regards

J-W

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hiya JW,.... not sure if these are any use,.... I`ve had these on my computer for years;

lerwick-mooring-up.jpglerwick-rear-turret.jpg

lerwick-taxying-on-water.jpg

 

Again,... good luck mate,... should look superb when finished,

Cheers

          Tony

 

EDIT,... Sorry,... didn`t realise you already had two of these ... ah well! 

                        

 

 

Edited by tonyot
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you - WQ-F with this large Fin Flash and A roundels on top of wings is exactly what I want to build. BTW -  there is a strange shape of patches on nose , with narrow connection for darker one...

Regards

J-W

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/9/2021 at 2:48 PM, JWM said:

Thank you - WQ-F with this large Fin Flash and A roundels on top of wings is exactly what I want to build. BTW -  there is a strange shape of patches on nose , with narrow connection for darker one...

Regards

J-W

 

 

Just to add to the mix- in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides.

 

It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels.

 

Mike

Edited by mick b
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, mick b said:

Just to add to the mix- in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides.

 

It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels.

Thank you, the shadow shading can explain the strange pattern. However the A (so blue, white,red) upper roundels are well seen on one photo of WQ*F/L7257...

Regards

J-W

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I look forward to seeing the build thread it's a little known subject.

 

Has anyone ever worked out what was wrong about the design. It didn't seem to handle any kind of flying, taking off or landing. Apart from a surprisingly small wing for a flying boat and a habit of losing a wing float I can't see anything wrong with it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Today I have found two unknown so far to me photos of L7257 from time of serving in 4th OTU

http://theinvergordonarchive.org.s3.amazonaws.com/1430.jpg

http://theinvergordonarchive.org.s3.amazonaws.com/1402.jpg

 

You may try also those lnks to web pages.

http://www.theinvergordonarchive.org/picture/number1402.asp

http://www.theinvergordonarchive.org/picture/number1430.asp

 

Interesting is that the serial is apparently on a rectangle of a different shade (lighter) and the serial is black. It looks like a remains of previous paint scheme...

Regards

J-W

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/12/2021 at 12:20 PM, mick b said:

Just to add to the mix- in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides.

 

It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels.

 

Mike

On photos like this one

lerwick-mooring-up.jpg

 

 

And especially this one

lerwick-taxying-on-water.jpg

 

some areas has almost horizontal borders what really can be explained by a shadow shading result.  I am curious if it can be truth? I am approaching in mine built to the painting time, so any discussion of pros and cons is most most welcomed!

 

Regards

J-W

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/12/2021 at 11:20 AM, mick b said:

 

Just to add to the mix- in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides.

 

It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels.

 

Mike

 

4 hours ago, JWM said:

On photos like this one

 

And especially this one

 

some areas has almost horizontal borders what really can be explained by a shadow shading result.  I am curious if it can be truth? I am approaching in mine built to the painting time, so any discussion of pros and cons is most most welcomed!

 

Regards

J-W

 

 

Paul Lucas does quote an Air Diagram (1164 for twin engine monoplane flying boats) which gives this a basis in reality. The colours in the profile drawing would go some way towards explaining the second photo. I don't think shadow shading of the Temperate Sea scheme was discontinued until the end of August 1940. So it might be true.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, rossm said:

Paul Lucas does quote an Air Diagram (1164 for twin engine monoplane flying boats) which gives this a basis in reality. The colours in the profile drawing would go some way towards explaining the second photo. I don't think shadow shading of the Temperate Sea scheme was discontinued until the end of August 1940. So it might be true.

Many thanks. So I think i will go this way (with sh. sh.) 

Regards

J-W

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/12/2021 at 12:20 PM, mick b said:

 

Just to add to the mix - in another Paul Lucas book, SAM monograph The Battle For Britain, he has a profile of WQ*F L7257 July 1940, showing it to be ‘one of the few instances of a monoplane design receiving the four colour shadow compensating TSS of EDSG, Dark Slate Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey’ uppersurfaces with Aluminium undersides.

It is shown with high flashes but red/blue upper wing roundels.

 

On 2/8/2021 at 9:46 PM, tonyot said:

For what it is worth I`d say that TSS is the way to go,.... at first with silver undersides. As for the three colour upper wing roundel,.... this was introduced on Coastal Command aircraft in late 1939-early 1940 to help identify aircraft due to some accidental blue on blue incidents. It was also seen on Ansons, Hudsons, Sunderlands etc but by the time of Dunkirk I think they had gone back to B Type roundels and applied yellow rings to the fuselage roundel and fin stripes.

So it looks that if you need to have a Lerwick in shadow shaded TSS camo with silver undersides, A roundels on upper surfaces, A1 on fuselage sides and a large fin flash the period should be (according to http://hrmtech.com/SIG/coastal_cam.asp) somewhere between 1st May and 19th July 1940.

Go on, brother - it should look quite colourful this way.

Cheers

Michael

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One more question: on beach gear colors. Looks on pre-war photos bright, maybe as natural aluminium. On photos of model builds in Net sometimes it is painted yellow. Wasn't it camouflaged in any way when war started?

Regards

J-W

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, JWM said:

One more question: on beach gear colors. Looks on pre-war photos bright, maybe as natural aluminium. On photos of model builds in Net sometimes it is painted yellow. Wasn't it camouflaged in any way when war started?

 

Hi JWM, as far as Sunderlands were concerned by studying as many photos as I can, early wartime camouflaged Sunderlands have aluminium main beaching gear but the tail wheels blocks appear a darker colour, possibly red, with the wheels being aluminium colour.

 

Later Sunderlands in the white scheme have a combination of aluminium main legs and sometimes a darker colour, possibly red.

 

Post war Sunderlands in Singapore had red beaching gear.

 

I cannot find proof of yellow beaching gear.

 

There are photos of camouflaged Lerwicks at Cowes factory with aluminium beaching gear, you have one of these photos.

 

I can see no reason why they would bother to camouflage the beaching gear, flying boat bases were difficult to hide from the air, and usually surrounded by other sorts of maritime clutter anyway.

 

regards, adey

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, adey m said:

There are photos of camouflaged Lerwicks at Cowes factory with aluminium beaching gear, you have one of these photos.

Adey, thank you. The only reason for war time camouflaging  was to keep all stuff in the  dull colors as far as possible - as a rule. I will go for alu, I think.

Regards

J-W

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 08/02/2021 at 20:19, JWM said:

what is a  light circle between roundel and "A"?

 

Hi JWM, regarding the circular patch on the fuselage that you refer to, this will be a gas detection patch, it was a yellowish colour and it would turn red I think if gas was present.

 

Square or round gas detection patches were applied to many RAF aircraft at the beginning of the war as there was a real fear that the Germans would use gas as in the First World War. Fighters usually had them applied to the top of the port wing. Early Sunderlands had a large circular patch applied to the port side of the nose just in front of the cockpit.

 

Returning to the subject of flying boat beaching gear colours I think it was a case of making them more visible to the handling crews rather than trying to hide them from an enemy aircraft.

 

regards, adey

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, adey m said:

Early Sunderlands had a large circular patch applied to the port side of the nose just in front of the cockpit.

Thanks, that I was supposing, but I had serious doubts:  here the position is strange for this - on a side of fuselage below dorsal turret (which can be lowered) and when is lowered the gunner eyes cannot see it, and nobody else from crew cannot see it as well...

 Regards

J-W

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, JWM said:

here the position is strange for this - on a side of fuselage below dorsal turret (which can be lowered) and when is lowered the gunner eyes cannot see it, and nobody else from crew cannot see it as well...

Hi JWM, they appear to have been applied where crew or pilots would notice them, and usually on the port side, so adjacent to entry doors or on the wing adjacent to the cockpit access. I agree that it does not seem very obvious on the Lerwick though. Beauforts had them applied on top of the fuselage just aft of the dorsal turret.

 

regards, adey

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 08/02/2021 at 20:19, JWM said:

Here the bottom color is very dark (could it be Night???) - there are roundels on bottoms , not present there if it is Sky

 

Hi JWM, I have never seen any evidence of Lerwicks having Night undersurfaces. The underwing roundels would be present on aircraft still having the factory aluminium undersurfaces.

 

Night undersurfaces would generally be applied to aircraft operating at night, either on offensive operations or as night fighters, and they would not wear underwing roundels as these would be too visible if caught in searchlights.

 

What might add confusion in the wearing of Night undersurfaces could be that RAF aircraft had one wing painted Night during the Phoney War period to aid recognition by ground observers. These then would have underwing roundels, such as on Spitfires.

 

regards, adey

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, adey m said:

I agree that it does not seem very obvious on the Lerwick though. Beauforts had them applied on top of the fuselage just aft of the dorsal turret.

Thanks! - so in both cases it seems that the dorsal gunner was is duty about watching the chem weapon indicator... 

Regards

J-W

Edited by JWM
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...