P-38J / F-5B Saint-Exupéry color

[MajorTom2004]

I am currently building the Lightning of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry in which he was shot down on July 31st 1944 close to Marseille, it is the F-5B 268223. As documentation i have a number of books, magazines and websites to choose from, but none of them can tell me what color the aircraft was painted that time. They differ between NMF, haze paint blue, haze paint dark blue, two red spinners, one red spinner, ... 

Does anybody of you has found a reliable information what color it really was?

 

Thanks, any help is highly appreciated

 

Thomas 

[Vesa Jussila]

Here is some discussion related to topic:

 

[silberpferd]

Hi Thomas,

 

F-5B 42-68223 can be seen in the background of this famous picture, on the right. The plane was NMF.

 

 

A fairly good representation of this plane can be seen at the bottom of this page.

 

https://www.x-plane.fr/showthread.php?t=63263

 

Laurent

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by silberpferd
spelling

[John Masters]

I have always heard it was NMF...

[MajorTom2004]

Very helpful mates, thanks a lot! 

Thomas

 

[Ossington 2]

I quite fancied making a model of '80' for years. Was it two-tone green/brown uppers or just green? I liked the high-demarcation soft Sky overspray and lots of dust. I read somewhere years ago that it was alluded this was the craft he was lost in, in some over priced French photo-journalism book. Then it turned out it wasn't. The wreckage is natural metal. 

[Chief Cohiba]

I might be a bit late on this, but as I was a bit researching recently for my own build,

 

We're talking the latter P38 F5 with #223, not the earlier #80 "Jeanne", right? This is mostly depicted as all over NMF, and said to have the French cocardes painted right on top the American insignias, letting the bars be visible behind.  I guess what's sure is that these machines weren't rather worn and heavily pre-used.

 

I remember having once read in an interview (but don't have the link anymore), that the mechanic taking care of St. Ex 223 stated it was an maching initially wearing the Synthethic Haze scheme, but it was almost entirely sanded away by salt, and wind, as well as poor care in in service in the mediterrinean sea.

So what I will try once I start it (base will be Trumpeter's giant 1/32 P38) is to create an overall, worn NMF scheme, with an final coat of Haze, chipping and polishing most of it away again.   

[MajorTom2004]

Hi Chief Cohiba.
After a lot of research in countless articles on internet, books, magazines, eye witness reports etc (together with two other people from Belgium and Germany), we are finally quite sure, the plane looked as follows:
Dull NMF, the antiglare panels black, not Olive Drab, the plane was 'handed over' to the Free French Army by end of February or beginning of March 1944, it was lost on July 31st 1944, so it is most likely the plane was not heavily worn. Eye witnesses reported French cocardes on the booms and American insignia on the wings. We found no hint of Haze in none of our references, one of them was the Icare No 96 containing a lot of information in French. Maybe you find some more information.

This is my finished build: https://www.scalemates.com/profiles/mate.php?id=29327&p=albums&album=67571#34

Edited April 18, 2022 by MajorTom2004

[Antti_K]

9 hours ago, Chief Cohiba said:

I remember having once read in an interview (but don't have the link anymore), that the mechanic taking care of St. Ex 223 stated it was an maching initially wearing the Synthethic Haze scheme, but it was almost entirely sanded away by salt, and wind, as well as poor care in in service in the mediterrinean sea.

 

That's exactly what I've read from a French aviation magazine (Ailes Francaises). There was an article about GR II/33 and some photos and profiles of the Lightnings.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

[Chief Cohiba]

12 hours ago, MajorTom2004 said:

This is my finished build: https://www.scalemates.com/profiles/mate.php?id=29327&p=albums&album=67571#34

Looking very good, Tom! 🎺

 

12 hours ago, MajorTom2004 said:

Dull NMF, the antiglare panels black, not Olive Drab

Honestly, I doubt that there is one definitive answer here, so I guess it is more about interpretation rather than "as it really was". But that's part of our hobby, right, even if the truth might be lost in the mist of time. 

 

I've found only one picture which said to show him in 223, showing a rather dark, definitely painted and heavily weathered wing section in the background. ( I don't want to post a link here as I didn't find a free version and don't want to raise any copyright issues.) But if you google for, say, "P38 St exupery 223", you will find it. It can be identified by the distinctive "x"-mark with a double bar in the upper right corner, straight behind St. Exupery's head. The little part from the air intake section of the right wing to me also looks like a F-5 B rather than an A with the sleeker intakes.

This fits to what I read that GR II/33 didn't receive factory-new planes, but used ones from american recce groups - hence the overpainted insignias. 

 

13 hours ago, Antti_K said:

hat's exactly what I've read from a French aviation magazine

If you find the link, I'd be more than grateful. Google doesn't like me today, as it seems. 😉 

[T-21]

An excellent softback book "Les P-38 de la 33e Escadre"  by Patrick Marchand and Isabelle Picard  Les Ailes de Glorie 1988  No.16 . French text but colour 3 view drawings of St Ex's P-38s. very detailed. 

[modelldoc]

Here is my interpretation, build decades before:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/14687569434/in/album-72157698040965940/

 

modelldoc

[Junchan]

The information of this site is useful and reliable.

http://www.aero-relic.org/English/F-5B_42-68223_St_Exupery/e-00-stexuperyf5b.htm

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Junchan

[Chief Cohiba]

19 hours ago, T-21 said:

An excellent softback book "Les P-38 de la 33e Escadre"  by Patrick Marchand and Isabelle Picard  Les Ailes de Glorie 1988  No.16

Many thanks, this looks like a good starting point - will check, if I can find it somewhere.

 

18 hours ago, modelldoc said:

Here is my interpretation, build decades before:

 

Looks very good!

 

15 hours ago, Junchan said:

The information of this site is useful and reliable.

http://www.aero-relic.org/English/F-5B_42-68223_St_Exupery/e-00-stexuperyf5b.htm

Many thanks, I think I have the summary of this in one of my books, but is helpful as well. 

 

I guess I stop hijacking this thread, but will start this discussion when I start my build. 

 

Thanks for your ideas, Guenther

 

 

 

 

[Thomas Bell]

I am, as usual, late for the party. The legendary kit designer Paul Koster sent me his last set of decals plus the instruction sheet for his 1/48 vac-form conversion for the F-5B, to be used on the ancient Monogram P-38.kit. Koster has St. Ex's recce bird in three-colour camo (brown, light green with a light-blue belly. The sheet is aging, but is salvageable and if anyone wants it, I'm happy to pass it on.

Tom