M3/M4 Medium Tank STGB II Chat

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Anyone have 1/35 dimensions of wading trunks and how they mounted to the rear of the tank ? The upper intake one would be fairly easy to mount but not sure how the exhaust one does ? Im looking for either standard or the early field made types using 55 gallon drums ? Im angling for two different options as of right now, Pacific or NWE. One of my kits decal options include markings for one the NWE options, and I believe it used a set of trunks on June 6th. 

[JackG]

Which type tank you need the wading trunk info?

 

 I'm still in the process of figuring out dimensions for the British style used on the Sherman III.  Basically whatever size/shape the main trunk was, any area still open around the exhaust would be blanked off with plating, and then sealed with applied rubber.   I don't believe anything was bolted through new holes in the tank hull.  Instead, metal  framework was welded in place that then was used to bolt the trunk proper.  Again, anywhere there was a seam or bolt, that would be covered with special sealant.

 

Something to get you started:

https://www.track-link.com/forums/research_ww2/29494/flat

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

8 minutes ago, JackG said:

Which type tank you need the wading trunk info?

U.S. style in use in the Pacific or on Omaha or Utah beach landings. The Pacific type includes the early field improvised 55 gallon drum types. If I knew how they mounted to the rear and upper deck. Combined with dimension’s I could scratch build what I need. The link looks good off to study and see what I can learn. 

[JackG]

You could probably guesstimate trunk width to the nearest foot, depth probably not more than two feet, and they seem to be angled back about 10 degrees.  The rest I've been kind of filling in the blanks for remaining dimensions to match photos.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

[Longbow]

The problem I found with scratch building the wading trunk, was the angles and spaces off the rear hull plate. 
One thing I learned from the M10 build, was to leave off the actual exhausts, and anything that is actually covered by the thunking. 
Fitting the verticals wasn’t the issue. It was building the horizontal off the rear plate. 
 

 

Its about as complex as scratching the nose on a DD. 
 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

45 minutes ago, Longbow said:

The problem I found with scratch building the wading trunk, was the angles and spaces off the rear hull plate. 
One thing I learned from the M10 build, was to leave off the actual exhausts, and anything that is actually covered by the thunking. 
Fitting the verticals wasn’t the issue. It was building the horizontal off the rear plate. 
 

 

Its about as complex as scratching the nose on a DD. 
 

That makes too much sense, maybe I should look at buying one ? Any recommendations as to where to look or brand ? 

[bigfoot]

4 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

That makes too much sense, maybe I should look at buying one ? Any recommendations as to where to look or brand ? 

There aren’t many AM wading stacks unfortunately. It depends what variant you want then for. Resicast do British wading stacks for Sherman III and V which are good, I’ve got several sets but they are British pattern which are a little different to the US ones but could be adaptable, especially if you’re planning on doing an M4A2 in the PTO. That’s what I’m doing with my GB Sherman so I’ll let you know how it fits!

 

Tank workshop did US wading stacks for M4 but they are sadly defunct these days and the 55 drum stacks for the marine Shermans.

 

What I plan on doing for when I get around to doing my Utah beach M4 is to use the pictures of the old OOP eduard M4A1 PE stacks as patterns for making them in plasticard: https://www.eduard.com/eduard/photo-etched-parts/photo-etched-set/afv/1-35/m4a1-deep-wading-kit-1-35.html

 

This is probably the easiest way of scratch building them if you’re doing an M4 or M4A1, either PTO or NWE.

 

I do have an old verlinden set for the M4A1 which I could measure for you, I’m not sure if the accuracy of it but it looks about right.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

51 minutes ago, bigfoot said:

Tank workshop did US wading stacks for M4 but they are sadly defunct these days and the 55 drum stacks for the marine Shermans.

 

What I plan on doing for when I get around to doing my Utah beach M4 is to use the pictures of the old OOP eduard M4A1 PE stacks as patterns for making them in plasticard: https://www.eduard.com/eduard/photo-etched-parts/photo-etched-set/afv/1-35/m4a1-deep-wading-kit-1-35.html

 

This is probably the easiest way of scratch building them if you’re doing an M4 or M4A1, either PTO or NWE.

 

I do have an old verlinden set for the M4A1 which I could measure for you, I’m not sure if the accuracy of it but it looks about right.

What Id do for a set of the tank workshop ones. If its not to much trouble to measure them ? My thinking is this would hide the incorrect exhaust of the M4 for an M4a2. I’m looking to add just the lower bits I think, but maybe the whole stack if I go 55 gallon ? I think I can scrounge the extra gas caps from old builds which is the other issue ? The rest can be modified by adding extra armor(wood or steel), sandbag’s, and stowage. I have an old Verlinden kit to add a second hatch into the turret if needs be. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Longbow]

6 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

That makes too much sense, maybe I should look at buying one ? Any recommendations as to where to look or brand ? 

Don't get me wrong lol... It's doable, just a little tricky working in the confined space of a connected hull top and bottom, and the thinest you can go with the card is 20 Thou, for the stability. I ended up with a lot of bracing within the structure. 

 

 

[bigfoot]

58 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

What Id do for a set of the tank workshop ones. If its not to much trouble to measure them ?

No worries, I’ll try and get measurements tonight. I do seem to remember there’s an article in a book or magazine I’ve got about scratch building the 55 gallon wading stacks with plans. I’ll see if I can find that too.

 

I did manage to snag a set of the tank workshop stacks a couple of years ago but the got lost in the post due to the covid lockdown. Was gutted to have not got them!

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Anyone have any info on these ? 
 

The vehicle not the kit ? I wonder if I could convert an M4 into one of these. I know its an Mk.III judging by the gas caps, but I could cover those up with stowage. Of course this might just be a future build seeing as I’ve found it. I also seriously want to do a BARV someday with the wading structure built up on top of the hull. 

[ColonelKrypton]

I have so far found two images of a similar vehicle in all my trolling around for data on the Ram Kanagroo and various M4 subjects.

 

Notably, this one:

 

 

and this one:

 

 

Both being described (depending on web site you find them on) as a M4 APC ( i.e. Kangaroo ) or M4 ARV.  In the last picture the M4 looks like it is either being followed by STUG or has one in tow.

 

I have found a few images of  turretless Canadian Grizzlies identified as an APC variation of that vehicle here: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/apcgriz.htm 

 

Some more Grizzly APC in Portugal post WW II here ( 3/4 of the way down the page ) https://canadianarmsandarmour.ca/the-m4a1-grizzly/

 

and finally, this one which to my eye looks kinda sorta like a M4A3 and post WWII (note what looks like a Centurion in the background on the left of the image ). The image is not that great but to my eye it likes this one has HVSS suspension:

 

 

There are a few images around of these M4 variants but not that many, at least what I have been able to find.  I would certainly like to find more information.

 

But what do I know?  The more I read and study on the M4 Sherman (and variants) the more I know but the more I get dazed confused.

 

cheers, Graham 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Definitely look like ARV’s as they both have what appear to be ram box or winch boxes mounted to the front. Looks to be towing a StuG. And yes the last image is an M4a3e8 or “Easy 8”. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[SleeperService]

6 hours ago, ColonelKrypton said:

I have so far found two images of a similar vehicle in all my trolling around for data on the Ram Kanagroo and various M4 subjects.

 

Notably, this one:

and this one:

 

Both being described (depending on web site you find them on) as a M4 APC ( i.e. Kangaroo ) or M4 ARV.  In the last picture the M4 looks like it is either being followed by STUG or has one in tow.

 

Those are both British type ARVs. The vice mounted on the front is the giveaway. Nice photos.

 

6 hours ago, ColonelKrypton said:

I have found a few images of  turretless Canadian Grizzlies identified as an APC variation of that vehicle here: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/apcgriz.htm 

 

Some more Grizzly APC in Portugal post WW II here ( 3/4 of the way down the page ) https://canadianarmsandarmour.ca/the-m4a1-grizzly/

 

and finally, this one which to my eye looks kinda sorta like a M4A3 and post WWII (note what looks like a Centurion in the background on the left of the image ). The image is not that great but to my eye it likes this one has HVSS suspension:

 

 

Certainly has got the later HVSS 'E8' suspension the tracks are the big giveaway with the centre guide teeth and dual disc rear idler. The earlier type had guides on the outer edges and a one disk idler. The 20A callsign suggests it's in Canada and being used as a command tank in a Centurion unit. THIS SITE says they are M4A2 and I'd agree as the USA had standarised on the M4A3 and Canada got M4A2s to replace their wartime equipment which was left behind in Europe. What is really interesting is that both hull hatches have been removed. I base this on the driver being head out but no sign of the hatch which would be raised vertically. The tall guy in the turret opening seems to be gripping the hatch opening for the hull gunner. The two large and one smaller lugs on the glacis show this was built with a 75mm or 76mm turret, the top lug for the retaining catch was lower on the 105mm. The lifting lugs on the glacis at the outer edge mean a tank from December 1944 or later production so that means a 76mm turret. Note that the hull mg and lights have been removed so the infantry telephone at the rear may be gone too although the first aid box originally on the LHS later moved to the hull rear should still be there. Overall an interesting vehicle.

 

6 hours ago, ColonelKrypton said:

There are a few images around of these M4 variants but not that many, at least what I have been able to find.  I would certainly like to find more information.

 

But what do I know?  The more I read and study on the M4 Sherman (and variants) the more I know but the more I get dazed confused.

cheers, Graham 

 

That's all part of the fun.

[diases]

If anyone is interested about the Miniart Lee's, Hannants have specials on the Interior/Non-interior kits.  £32 for non-interior, £40 for full interior.

 

I'm getting a couple later, if not sold out.

Paul

 

PS. New arrivals has a I Love Kits British Grant as well, dont know what its like though

 

Edit. Interior Lee and the grant on the way 🤪

Edited March 27, 2022 by diases
Purchased now

[Marklo]

Wandered into my local art shop yesterday and much to my surprise a new batch of Airfix kits including this beauty. ( ignore the Nesher it came from the toy shop down the road) Airfix modellers world built one a few issues back and it looked marvellous.

[robw_uk]

getting ready to start... I hope to get the kit out the loft today/tomorrow

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Anyone know anything regarding visual changes from a Standard M4a2 to an M4a2 with a Flamethrower ? The two options as far as my decals go are standard or flamethrower tank. 

[bigfoot]

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Anyone know anything regarding visual changes from a Standard M4a2 to an M4a2 with a Flamethrower ? The two options as far as my decals go are standard or flamethrower tank. 

I believe the changes to the flame tanks were all internal, there was no external fuel container and the flame thrower exited through the 75mm barrel. From pictures I’ve seen of them on Iwo, I can’t spot any visual differences (although there are mostly covered in detritus!)

[SleeperService]

9 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Anyone know anything regarding visual changes from a Standard M4a2 to an M4a2 with a Flamethrower ? The two options as far as my decals go are standard or flamethrower tank. 

 

There were several different Sherman flamethrowers including one type with the British Crocodile. What decals have you got and I can go digging. 

7 hours ago, bigfoot said:

I believe the changes to the flame tanks were all internal, there was no external fuel container and the flame thrower exited through the 75mm barrel. From pictures I’ve seen of them on Iwo, I can’t spot any visual differences (although there are mostly covered in detritus!)

The main gun flamethrower type is just one of a variety. It can be a very messy subject.

[bigfoot]

51 minutes ago, SleeperService said:

The main gun flamethrower type is just one of a variety. It can be a very messy subject.

Good point, I was referring to the ones used on Iwo Jima as I’d already seen @Corsairfoxfouruncle build thread where he showed he was intending to build an Iwo tank.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

2 hours ago, SleeperService said:

What decals have you got and I can go digging. 

The upper right option. 
my research shows it replaces the bow gun. The fuel tank goes in the right side sponson 75 ammo location. Is it just a pipe or an infantry flame thrower mounted ? 

[bigfoot]

The small hatch M4A2’s may have had a different arrangement then to the large hatch tanks as the M4A3’s on Iwo definitely had it coming out the 75mm barrel. I’d perhaps incorrectly assumed all the battalions on Iwo would have used the same configuration.

Edited April 8, 2022 by bigfoot

[Robert Stuart]

There are some images of surviving Sherman flamethrowers here: http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Sherman_Flame.pdf

[SleeperService]

On 4/8/2022 at 7:38 PM, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

The upper right option.
my research shows it replaces the bow gun. The fuel tank goes in the right side sponson 75 ammo location. Is it just a pipe or an infantry flame thrower mounted ? 

Apache had the E4-5 consisting of the E5 flame gun and E4 sponson fuel tank standardised as the M3-4-3 bow mount flame thrower in 1945, the infantry type was only fitted to M3 Light tanks. There's a great history of all of them HERE  it is essentially a tube of the same diameter as the .30cal barrel. The hull mg was stowed above the transmission tunnel when removed. Six were fitted to M4A2 tanks of 3d Tank Battalion 3d Marine division used on Guam 22 July 1944, more were available for Iwo Jima and Okinawa for the 4th Tank Battalion 4th Marine Division as well. Although used frequently the main armament POA-CWS-H1 was much preferred. This main system saw 4 examples each with 4th and 5th Tank Battalions on Iwo Jima mounted on M4A3 tanks first action 21 February 1945. Subsequently more vehicles were issued to the 713th Tank Battalion 10th Army seeing action on Okinawa from 19 March 1945. In 70 days of operations 41 were KO'd (26 repaired) with no crew lost in the vehicles.