Hurricane I Z4177 of 803 Sqn - a few questions.

[Simon]

Hello all

 

I've a couple of questions about this Hurricane, if anyone can help at all.

 

Ray Sturtivant had the following in his FAA Aircraft 1939-1945:

 

Z4177 - Hurricane I/Trop - 803 Sqn Sidi Haneish ('Q') 8.41; bomber escort to Sidi Rezegh, probably shot down Bf109 1535, then damaged Bf109 which was attacking a Tomahawk at 7,000 ft. 1640 23.11.41 (S/L AR Astin); BF109f probable and BF109e damaged in general engagement at 7,000 ft. 10m S of Duda 0915 1.12.41 (S/L PN Charlton); EF, FL wheels-up 12m W of Mersa Matruh, Cat. R 4.2.42 (S/L GR Henderson OK); EF, FL 1m W of Mersa Martuh 11.2.41 [sic - 11.2.42?]; Retd. RAF.

 

There are a couple of profile illustrations floating around on the interweb, including this one on the Wings Palette website:

 

 

So, on to my questions:

 

Firstly, should this have a tropical filter under the nose, being a Mk. I Trop?

 

Secondly, where does this profile come from - I assume it's been 'borrowed' from a book?

 

Thirdly, taking into account the maxim 'never trust a profile without a photo' - is there an actual photo it's based on which confirms the colourscheme and markings? Is that what the reference to 'page 143' is about? 

 

Thanks

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I don't recognise the source nor the description of the Martlets as overall Azure Blue.  If it is a Mk.I/Trop then yes it should have a Vokes filter, different to those on the Mk.II, but the TLS colours are certainly normal  on Hurricane Mk.Is delivered to the Western Desert.  As for the Blue serial - no credibility.  There's be no reason to repaint it from its original factory finish.  The RN may have used blue as a unit code (though it would certainly be distinctive, if not unique), and therefore might have used this paint to denote their possession, but it seems odd.  Even if they painted ROYAL NAVY on an aircraft known to be on loan... which cannot be ruled out!

 

A lot of odd things did happen, but this combination does seem to be stacking the odds somewhat.

 

PS  The Middle East covered more than the Western Desert, so there was a stock of Hurricanes without the dust filters.  Examples are those which served in Greece, but possibly those in the Syrian campaign too?  If the unit was still based in the Nile Delta, rather than "in the blue" then it could have  been seen as less of a problem.

[Simon]

Many thanks for that Graham. It certainly seems an odd combination of markings, with the large outsized serial, and the use of blue for it, the code letter and ROYAL NAVY lettering.

 

The profile certainly has an 'old school' feel - it's an actual proper painting, rather than a computer-generated illustration.

 

Simon

[Hornet133]

I have tracked back to the Wings Palette site as they usually say what the source of their profiles are, but on this occasion they say 'source unknown' i.e whoever uploaded it did not specify.

[Simon]

There are some photos another 803 Sqn Hurricane, Z4024 K, linked on this thread:

 

It too has the single code letter, but has a coloured spinner (or is it just a stripe?) and has a Vokes filter. The code letter doesn't seem to be blue, and I can't see any Royal Navy titles.

 

Links:

 

http://images.britishpathe.com/?id=60382&num=140&size=still

 

http://images.britishpathe.com/?id=60382&num=147&size=still

 

http://images.britishpathe.com/?id=60382&num=134&size=still

 

Sturtivant has:

 

Z4024 - Hurricane I/Trop - 803 Sqn ('K') from 11.41; Accident at LG.012, Cat. R 4.12.41; Retd RAF

 

Simon

 

[Simon]

Graham

 

Here's the Martlet image the text in the profile of Z4177 refers to:

 

 

And here too:

 

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/grumman_f4f/f4f_gb_002.html

 

Simon

[Graham Boak]

These Martlets were F4Fs being delivered to Greece in the USN's standard Neutrality Grey of the period when they were diverted to the RN in the Middle East.  They initially operated in this scheme but were later repainted in Middle Stone on top and Azure Blue underneath.

[ClaudioN]

3 hours ago, Simon said:

There are some photos another 803 Sqn Hurricane, Z4024 K, linked on this thread.

I believe 'K' in that case was Z4373:

http://images.britishpathe.com/?id=60382&num=126&size=still

and Graham had suggested it might come from 94 Sqn. RAF.

In another photo, 'K' of 803 Squadron is shown to have been V7816 at some time.

 

A few photos of 803 Sqn. Hurricanes suggest that aircraft letters could have been in various colours, hence 'Q' "might" be blue. However, I doubt the serial number and 'Royal Navy' legend could be other than black.

 

 

[Ed Russell]

Interestingly ADF-Serials has it thus - Z4177 Mk.I Served with 451 Sqn.

[Hornet133]

Yes I can confirm that Z4177 was with 451 Sqn in 1941. Z4117 which I originally put was also with 451 Sqn C Flight 1942 in Syria.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Hornet133
To correct serial number

[Graham Boak]

Air Britain has Z4177 as 33/RNFS/803/RNFS/71OTU  Spun into ground off turn 8m west of Ismailia 28.6.43 DBF   Sturtivant has it as Q with 803 Sq.  (He has quite a lot of code/serial links for the RNFS.)

 

No mention of 451 in what appears to be a fairly long listing, for ME Hurricanes.  However, in his recent volumes covering the Mediterranean air war, Chris Shores appears to take some delight in publishing photographs of Hurricanes not recorded as being with the unit whose codes they are clearly carrying.  We can reasonably assume that ME records are incomplete.  Hence although Z4373 is only listed as being with 94 Sq, there maybe legitimate doubt.

 

Z4117 is indeed listed with 451, and 451 only.  It is not in Sturtivant, but Z4171 is (as N,U)  Air Britain simply has this as Middle East.

[Hornet133]

I originally looked up the wrong serial in my 451 Sqn records. By co-incidence both Z4117 which I originally talked about by mistake and Z4771 served with 451 Sqn at different times. I have attached a photo of the subject airframe Z4771 below, the pilot shown is Ray Goldberg, talking to the Air Liason Officer, having just returned from a recce.

 

 

The Air Britian records for most M.E Sqns are very incomplete. The Aircraft History Cards for M.E airframes were destroyed postwar and the only way to make a listing is to go through all the unit records. But many of those are very sketchy. There are NO serials in the 451 sqn ORB prior to June 1943, long after the period in question. I have a few more sources but things are very incomplete.

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Hornet133

[Simon]

Great photo Hornet133, thanks for posting it.

 

And thanks Claudio for the gen about 'K'.

 

Simon