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Indian Su-7BMK colours


RidgeRunner

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Hi all, 

 

A plea for reassurance! 
 

My intended Su-7 build has a reference photo, in black and white, and clearly shows a demarcation line on the nose between the upper grey(?) and a lighter underside. The only other photos I have found if similar machines, with such a demarcation, and in colour, show a blue grey as the grey on the upper side. I’m not yet convinced that my machine had this grey. Assuming it did, my question is whether anyone out there knows this shade of colour? Of course if this isn’t the scheme I’d welcome any theories about the scheme. Thanks in advance.

 

Any ideas? @tomthounaojam @Linescriber @Stilwell @HOUSTON @Basuroy and any other Soviet/Indian experts?

 

Martin

 

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On 2/3/2021 at 9:02 AM, RidgeRunner said:

My intended Su-7 build has a reference photo, in black and white, and clearly shows a demarcation line on the nose between the upper grey(?) and a lighter underside. The only other photos I have found if similar machines, with such a demarcation, and in colour, show a blue grey as the grey on the upper side. I’m not yet convinced that my machine had this grey. Assuming it did, my question is whether anyone out there knows this shade of colour? Of course if this isn’t the scheme I’d welcome any theories about the scheme. Thanks in advance.

 

Any ideas? @tomthounaojam @Linescriber @Stilwell @HOUSTON @Basuroy and any other Soviet/Indian experts?

Having now trawled through all the images I have I think the blue-grey is a red herring. I can only find it on B817 and, I think, it was much later than B896’s service with the TACDE. However, to me it still looks like B896  had a different grey on the undersides compared to the upper (see photo above). In almost all images I can find,  the grey of the  camouflage scheme was extended on the undersides and thus there was no demarcation. Any ideas? 

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Hi Martin

 

This looks like a tricky one. Looks like you've got the same reference photo I have seen of B896, from the Famous Russian Aircraft book (p208). This definitely seems to show a difference in tone between the upper and lower surface greys, whereas other airframes seem to have one grey upper and lower.

 

Not sure how helpful that is, but I think you are correct on B896 in particular

 

Chris

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Thanks Chris @Vultures1. I reckon I will be applying the same grey for the top coat camp as my previous (like those with the same grey over and under) and a lighter grey on the undersides. I’m not sure what the shade will be. It’ll be an element of guess work.

 

 

Martin

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In the absence of any photographic confirmation, in colour, I'm going with:

 

Humbrol enamels:

98 Chocolate

163 Dark Green

165 Medium Sea Grey

 with 64 Light Grey for the undersides.

 

The top three worked well on my earlier build and 64 LIght Grey looks like it could work ;)

 

Now, I wait for a colour photo to be posted by a BMer ;)

 

I am actually intrigued by the photo above of a machine with a white fin and wing tips ;). More interesting, for another build, would be "Tommy", a Su-7BMK with red and white fin and tail planes. :)

 

Martin

 

 

 

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I think you are right Martin, it's going to be a case of eyeballing the colours and there are so many variables in play that it is hard to be definitive.

 

Just a suggestion, but is there a hint more blue to the upper grey than Humbrol 165 Medium Grey?  If you are sticking with the Humbrol range, maybe Humbrol 79 blue grey could be worth a look?  link

 

As I say, just a suggestion 🙂

 

Chris

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4 minutes ago, Vultures1 said:

I think you are right Martin, it's going to be a case of eyeballing the colours and there are so many variables in play that it is hard to be definitive.

 

Just a suggestion, but is there a hint more blue to the upper grey than Humbrol 165 Medium Grey?  If you are sticking with the Humbrol range, maybe Humbrol 79 blue grey could be worth a look?  link

 

As I say, just a suggestion 🙂

 

Chris

Hmmm .... you could be right, Chris. I'll ponder over that a while.... :) Thanks. Is does look dark, though. 

 

Martin

 

 

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  • 3 months later...

@Vultures1 @tomthounaojam @Basuroy @Linescriber @Stilwell @Wez @Giorgio N @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies et al 
 

Chaps and chappeses, I wonder how close the Indians ran their paint stock to RAF colours. I’d imagine that immediately post war they were often the same but how about later, like on Hunters and Canberra’s? I like Chris’ idea about a blueish grey as part of the uppers and wonder if the RAF Colourcoats range might help? Any thoughts?


I am keen to get this tied down now as the GB builds is are coming to an end and I can get back to the Fitter ;)

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Martin

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I’m no expert on RAF colours, hence the appeal. I have found some references to “Light Aircraft Grey” as related to Hunters. However, this seems to be mid 1960s onwards. My gut tells me the aircraft like early Hunters, Sabres and Canberra’s has a darker grey in the upper camo? I may be off on a wild goose chase, of course! 

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1 hour ago, RidgeRunner said:

@Vultures1 @tomthounaojam @Basuroy @Linescriber @Stilwell @Wez @Giorgio N @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies et al 
 

Chaps and chappeses, I wonder how close the Indians ran their paint stock to RAF colours. I’d imagine that immediately post war they were often the same but how about later, like on Hunters and Canberra’s? I like Chris’ idea about a blueish grey as part of the uppers and wonder if the RAF Colourcoats range might help? Any thoughts?


I am keen to get this tied down now as the GB builds is are coming to an end and I can get back to the Fitter ;)

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Martin

 

For the Hunters and Canberras I'd suggest they were originally delivered in British colours so initially, they'd be in the equivalent to the RAF colours of Dark Green/Dark Sea Grey/Silver or possibly Light Aircraft Grey.  After their first in country repaint, I couldn't even begin to hazard a guess.

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1 hour ago, RidgeRunner said:

I have found some references to “Light Aircraft Grey” as related to Hunters.

Light Aircraft Grey was the preferred colour for the under-sides of RAF combat aircraft in the period between when High Speed Silver went out of fashion and when wrap-around top-side colours became the thing. For the top-sides, Dark Sea Grey was the preferred accompaniment to the Dark Green.

    Jonathan.  

 

Edited by Stilwell
Edited for typo
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When the Hunter F.56 were delivered to India (late '50s), Light Aircraft Grey did not exist yet and lower surfaces would have been painted silver. 

In the late '60s India received further aircraft designated F.56a and these may have used Light Aircraft Grey. Pictures are not clear as some seem to show silver under these as well while others may show grey.

Indian aircraft were in any case delivered in standard RAF colours

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As far as I know, most Hunter came with color painted from the UK itself and so does for the Canberra and these two aircraft were not made in India by HAL. Also, I have seen picture of Hunter with original colors till it was retire. However, somewhere painted and with wide varieties of colors which we have I guess it was a bucket of paint for the chap to paint and most paint must be locally sourced. The Hunters and Canberra which I have seen in Museum already have spurious RAF color or which look like but it is not. Only recently with LS some are painted to correct paint which depict, but then once it is Indian service with local paint I guess we can called it desi RAF color.

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2 hours ago, Stilwell said:

For the top-sides, Dark Sea Grey was the preferred accompaniment to the Dark Green.

Thanks, Jonathan. I therefore wonder if dark sea grey is appropriate for the early Su-7 camo scheme in Indian service?

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1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

When the Hunter F.56 were delivered to India (late '50s), Light Aircraft Grey did not exist yet and lower surfaces would have been painted silver. 

In the late '60s India received further aircraft designated F.56a and these may have used Light Aircraft Grey. Pictures are not clear as some seem to show silver under these as well while others may show grey.

Indian aircraft were in any case delivered in standard RAF colours

Thanks Giorgio. So now I wonder if LAG is appropriate for the undersides of my Fitter?

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Hi Jonathan @Stilwell. I am intending to finish my model as B896, the Fitter I showed in post 2 of this thread. My impression is that this photo is from an early time in its career and clearly there is a demarcation between the upper grey and the lower grey.
 

Previously I built an Indian Fitter with the upper grey wrapping round to the lower side. In fact it was modelled from the image that you show of B790. For my new build it seems to be different, hence my question about the greys used. I guess B790 et al had very faded grey and that it was darker early on? So, my challenge is to find the shade of grey for the uppers and lowers, as shown in the shot above in post 6 above. Any help you can provide would be very welcome. Thank you.

 

Martin

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just a final thought - could the underside have been silver lacquer like the Hunters and Canberra’s? I reckon not but I’d feel reassured but the collective reasoning of the group. My gut still feels it was a light grey. Thanks!

 

Martin

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  • 4 weeks later...
23 hours ago, Linescriber said:

Perhaps this might help?/ BTW the Chocolate was actually Russian brown, more reddish than chocolate.

Wonderful! That is a massive help!!! ;)


what do you think the upper grey is, or close to? 
 

Edit: it seems to me that Medium Sea Grey on the lower surfaces and Dark Sea Grey on the uppers, together with the green and Russian brown is about right. Would you agree @Linescriber
 

Martin

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