dogsbody Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 That machine gun is based on the early belt-fed Army style, that was based on the water-cooled Maxim guns. This was not the same as the drum-fed later guns. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30034662 Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 On 3/13/2021 at 10:07 AM, giemme said: Impressive work Alan, as ever Ciao you smooth talker you, Giorgio. On 3/13/2021 at 10:26 AM, Pete in Lincs said: Let the rejoicing begin, and your pain and heartache rapidly diminish. Epic work. Thanks Pete. Such a shame it's a biplane. On 3/13/2021 at 10:07 AM, Brandy said: I think the circular "magazine" is the return for spent cartridges back to an internal storage case. Vickers guns were fed from the right and ejected to the left, so that would fit. I'm not an expert, and I have no idea about the barrel, it maybe it's just that return that makes it appear bigger? Ian ta Ian, that makes sense On 3/13/2021 at 1:20 PM, dogsbody said: That machine gun is based on the early belt-fed Army style, that was based on the water-cooled Maxim guns. This was not the same as the drum-fed later guns. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30034662 Chris Excellent info Chris. Any ideas where the barrel was positioned relative to that drum ? Was it on the centerline or offset? Some good progress has been made over the last few days. Maybe not so much from a visual impact perspective, but more from a how on earth do I accomplish this basis. I realized that my previous approach to modeling the exhaust problem was, as we used to say back home, erse fer elba. I was trying to model the indeterminate bulge protruding from the exhaust collector before attempting to model the exhausts themselves. This was making it much more difficult than it needed to be. This time I took a different approach reckoning that if I got the exhausts modeled, then adding the bulge between the collector and the tubes would be a lot easier. I was wrong. It wasn't a lot easier, but it was slightly easier . I was quite pleased with the engine/exhaust assembly given the limited information I have to go on. As good as the base plan is, it's a raster format, not a vector format so it makes getting "exact" position/dimension etc. almost impossible. I am also convinced there is something awry in the drawing as some things just don't match up. My best course of action is to try and replicate the same views as seen in photos such as this Adding to the problem is th fact that there are not a great deal of photos showing straight on views of the exhaust or collector ring, and the drawing doesn't tie up with the photo's. For example, the Granger drawing has the exhausts showing as curved from front to rear, but based on that shot above, I'm fairly convinced the exhaust pipes are straight, and not curved. A straight on view shows that my home brew exhausts are pretty close. (Note that this view is showing a different engine configuration) but the exhaust lins are similar.) It probably took me a couple of days to get to this stage as it was a constant redoing of lengths and angles and cross referencing back to photos to get the relationship between the exhausts pipes, engine, fuselage, and undercarriage legs all looking reasonable. It's not perfect but it's as good as I am going to get it unless some other information surfaces. This shot gives a better representation of how close, or how mismatched everything is. Once I was happy with the exhaust angles I went back and remodeled the bulges. Taking another look at the engine I feel that I'm about as close as I'm ever going to get I think the propellor will be next, and I have a feeling that may be quite challenging - again, no decent drawing and only a few vague photos but I'll give it a bash. I'm hoping to have the design work all complete within a few weeks and then I can start finalizing the parts breakdown and assembly sequence. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Blimmineck! Belated catching up after recent health nonsense; that’s a fine Wapiti. Stunning work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 The gun in Chris's link is a Browning, the Wapiti had a Vickers. Stunning work on the engine there though, this is shaping up to be a real masterpiece (provided you can rig it!) 😉 Ian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianMF Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 It all looks terrific! Looking forward to the big print session(s). Regards, Adrian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianMF Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Brandy said: provided you can rig it! Just wondering whether you can build the rigging holes (or at least some) into the design? ISTR that you did some tests to see how fine a hole you could make for the purposes of inserting brass rod. Or whether it’s just less faff to drill ‘em after printing. Regards, Adrian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Braw bulges there, Big man, By the way! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 11 hours ago, hendie said: I'm hoping to have the design work all complete within a few weeks You surely meant days, right? We can't be possibly waiting for weeks, can we? How about taking some days off and complete this? Joking aside, the exhaust/engine join do look the part Ciao 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Huge and impressive work! The 3D Bristol engine itself could be an excellent stuff for aftermarket, especially that you can scale it into 1/72 and 1/32 as well... Regards J-W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 9 hours ago, Brandy said: The gun in Chris's link is a Browning, the Wapiti had a Vickers. Stunning work on the engine there though, this is shaping up to be a real masterpiece (provided you can rig it!) 😉 Ian Of all the Wapiti photos that I have looked at, I haven't seen one that shows a drum-fed machine gun in that position. As it's a synchronized gun that fires through the prop arc, a belt-fed gun was used. This is from Wikipedia: During World War I, the Vickers gun became a standard weapon on British and French military aircraft, especially after 1916. Although heavier than the Lewis, its closed bolt firing cycle made it much easier to synchronize to allow it to fire through aircraft propellers. The belt feed was enclosed right up to the gun's feed-way to inhibit effects from wind. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 It isn't drum fed as far as I can see. I think the drum is a feed to return the spent cartridges to an internal storage bin. The Browning wasn't adopted by the RAF (according to Wikipedia) until 1937, far too late for the Wapiti. Wikipedia also states that the Wapiti was armed with a Vickers, not a Browning, both of which were belt fed anyway! Ian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heloman1 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Well Alan, late to the party, hope there is some champers left. Those renderings of the engine are exquisite, nice pencil work! The prints are looking exceptional. You are a wizard!!! Colin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Brandy said: It isn't drum fed as far as I can see. I think the drum is a feed to return the spent cartridges to an internal storage bin. The Browning wasn't adopted by the RAF (according to Wikipedia) until 1937, far too late for the Wapiti. Wikipedia also states that the Wapiti was armed with a Vickers, not a Browning, both of which were belt fed anyway! Ian Vickers also made a belt-fed machine gun before it made the drum-fed guns. It was based on the Maxim gun and was used by the British Army. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_machine_gun Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 7 hours ago, dogsbody said: Vickers also made a belt-fed machine gun before it made the drum-fed guns. It was based on the Maxim gun and was used by the British Army. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_machine_gun Chris Exactly, that is what is fitted to the Wapiti! It isn't a drum fed gun. What we are looking at is a feed for the belt, not an ammunition drum. It can be seen better here. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev67 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Very impressed and very jealous at the same time, I have used Rhino to create wheels and propellers easily enough, but never attempted more complex shapes, to be honest I would not know where to begin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 10 hours ago, Brandy said: Exactly, that is what is fitted to the Wapiti! It isn't a drum fed gun. What we are looking at is a feed for the belt, not an ammunition drum. It can be seen better here. Ian That's what I've been saying! A belt-fed gun, not drum-fed. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekS Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Hi, Ref. the machine gun,it appears to be a Vickers Mk2*B.The B indicating RH feed.What is causing the confusion is the synchroniser motor &it`s shadow above the gun.The Chute coming from the left of the gun is to collect the belt links.The empty cases exit from the bottom of the gun. According to the drawings in "Early Aircraft Armament" By Harry Woodman,the dimensions of the gun are as follows: Receiver 16.5"long x4.5"deep x2.25"wide Barrel jacket 24"long x2.25"diameter Also note the barrel jacket is perforated like a Browning. Hope this helps, Derek S 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 2 hours ago, dogsbody said: That's what I've been saying! A belt-fed gun, not drum-fed. Chris Chris, I said that in my very first comment, that it was NOT drum fed! I also pointed out that it was not a Browning, as suggested by your link to the IWM site, but a Vickers! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 On 3/16/2021 at 11:04 PM, Ex-FAAWAFU said: Blimmineck! Belated catching up after recent health nonsense; that’s a fine Wapiti. Stunning work. thanks Crisp. It makes a nice change from biplanes. No. Wait... On 3/17/2021 at 1:01 AM, Brandy said: The gun in Chris's link is a Browning, the Wapiti had a Vickers. Stunning work on the engine there though, this is shaping up to be a real masterpiece (provided you can rig it!) 😉 Ian you just had to go and bring up that subject didn't you On 3/17/2021 at 2:16 AM, AdrianMF said: It all looks terrific! Looking forward to the big print session(s). Regards, Adrian a lot more than me I'll bet, Adrian On 3/17/2021 at 2:25 AM, AdrianMF said: Just wondering whether you can build the rigging holes (or at least some) into the design? ISTR that you did some tests to see how fine a hole you could make for the purposes of inserting brass rod. Or whether it’s just less faff to drill ‘em after printing. Regards, Adrian I did consider inserting rigging holes but I think to be honest it will be just as easy to drill them afterwards. I'm hoping for some test printing this weekend so I may try and see what happens On 3/17/2021 at 5:33 AM, Pete in Lincs said: Braw bulges there, Big man, By the way! Not the first time I've heard that Pete On 3/17/2021 at 7:28 AM, giemme said: You surely meant days, right? We can't be possibly waiting for weeks, can we? How about taking some days off and complete this? Joking aside, the exhaust/engine join do look the part Ciao oh Giorgio, let's be serious now. Okay, I may take tomorrow off (possibly) On 3/17/2021 at 10:47 AM, JWM said: Huge and impressive work! The 3D Bristol engine itself could be an excellent stuff for aftermarket, especially that you can scale it into 1/72 and 1/32 as well... Regards J-W I'm not sure how much detail would be present at 1/72, but going the other way is definitely an option 22 hours ago, heloman1 said: Well Alan, late to the party, hope there is some champers left. Those renderings of the engine are exquisite, nice pencil work! The prints are looking exceptional. You are a wizard!!! Colin ta Colin. I think the wizardry is in the alchemy and not moi, as much as I'd like to take credit Thanks @dogsbody & @Brandy for all the contribution on the machine gun. At least we have ascertained it is not a drum fed gun. After performing some more research I found that there appears to be several types of gun fitted to the Wapiti. Some appear to have slotted barrels, some fluted, and with and without cooling(?) jackets. It's all very confusing. I'm just going to pick one and move forward. 4 hours ago, kev67 said: Very impressed and very jealous at the same time, I have used Rhino to create wheels and propellers easily enough, but never attempted more complex shapes, to be honest I would not know where to begin It's fairly straightforward - you grab a serviette, knife and fork, walk up to the elephant.... 37 minutes ago, derekS said: Hi, Ref. the machine gun,it appears to be a Vickers Mk2*B.The B indicating RH feed.What is causing the confusion is the synchroniser motor &it`s shadow above the gun.The Chute coming from the left of the gun is to collect the belt links.The empty cases exit from the bottom of the gun. According to the drawings in "Early Aircraft Armament" By Harry Woodman,the dimensions of the gun are as follows: Receiver 16.5"long x4.5"deep x2.25"wide Barrel jacket 24"long x2.25"diameter Also note the barrel jacket is perforated like a Browning. Hope this helps, Derek S Thanks Derek, it's helped but I've already gone and done a gun looking thing, so better late than never. Actually it will only take me a few minutes to make the necessary changes. So before everyone chipped in and provided the necessary info, I had found this drawing on the web and used it to create the (wrong) machine gun plank it on the gun platform and then realize that there is a problem. Buggrit. As I started looking over everything I noticed that the gun was placed perfectly to shoot straight through one of the engine cylinders. That's probably not a very good thing to happen. I double checked all views on the drawings. The gun platform was in the right position, and at the right height, but no matter how I positioned the gun the pilot was not going to have a good day if he pulled the trigger. as a quick test I turned the machine gun into a light sabre and adjusted it so that it didn't destroy the powerplant. Well, this isn't going to work is it. Around this time I started having doubts about the accuracy of the engine. More internet session later I came across information that stated the Jupiter engine was a smidgen under 53.5 inches in diameter. Okay, now I have something to go on. Out with pen and paper and some sums later I reckoned the Jupiter should be around 28.3mm in diameter at 1/48 scale. Checking the Jupiter model I created I found that the diameter was 30mm. Oops. Not a lot but it may just be enough. I dove into the engine work again and rejigged a few features and eventually I got to this stage 28.99mm which means that it's oversize by around .6mm in diameter, therefore 0.3mm too long from center point to outside of cylinder. Back to the model and what a difference! None really. The machine gun was still destroying a cylinder. What on earth was going on. Was it the drawings? Was it me? After trawling through all the photos again I think I have it figured out. Unfortunately none of the photos I have are taken at an angle where I can prove my hypothesis, but on a couple of photos, if I believe hard enough, I think the gun is angled upwards slightly. This photo is about the best example I can find. If you look at the covered barrel you can see that it diverges away from that dark (horizontal) band on the fuselage. Things started to make sense to me at least after that. I found that applying a 2 degree angle to the gun with the gun placed at the correct distance from the fuselage, put the bullet path between the cylinders. Cue light sabre test... Does that make sense to others as well? or am I missing something here? now back to changing that barrel 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianMF Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Blimey, that's a bit hit and miss (literally!)... But I suppose it's no worse than the Gladiator, although all the excitement is under the cowling. Regards, Adrian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 3 hours ago, hendie said: Does that make sense to others as well? It totally does, Alan. I just wonder how the Wapiti crew would have aligned the gun to shoot between the cylinders without that light sabre... Ciao 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianMF Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Add coins under the front mounting until it stops making a metallic dinging noise during firing? Adrian 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 The Force is getting stronger in this build. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 1 hour ago, AdrianMF said: Add coins under the front mounting until it stops making a metallic dinging noise during firing? Adrian spoken like a true engineer 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekS Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Hi, Me again.The guns are available from Miniworld,ref Mina4862 in 1/48 Good photo on Hannants web site. As the set is for the Flycatcher it includes 2 guns,LH & RH feed. Your progress so far is stunning. Best wishes, Derek S 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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