US Navy blue

[-Ian-]

Hi everyone

 

I'm currently building a Eduard Hellcat, specifically the night fighter variant, the instruction call for Mr Color C14 - Navy Blue but I've used it's Aqueous equivalent H54. The problem is the paint doesn't look blue enough to me, it's more dark like grey with a VERY slight hint of blue.

 

Any ideas as to an alternate paint I could try, is C14 actually a slightly different shade to  H54? 

 

Thanks

Edited January 31, 2021 by -Ian-

[Troy Smith]

48 minutes ago, -Ian- said:

The problem is the paint doesn't look blue enough to me, it's more dark like grey with a VERY slight hint of blue.

 

I suspect the problem is you don't really know what ANA623 Gloss Sea Blue actually looks like,  and your description is what it it really looks like, a very dark grey blue. 

 

Most model paint get them wrong as well. If you paint saying 'ANA 623/FS15042 Gloss Sea Blue' it's at least 50% wrong, as ANA623 and FS15042 are NOT the same color.

 

I have this

 

which has paint color chips, and the WW2 USN Sea Blues are not what you expect.   (and I have been trying to mix USN Sea Blues from it)

 

Also, there is a wartime color, and then this changed in 1947, as the wartime ANA623 was prone to fading,  so color shots of Korea etc are a different color.

 

This thread discusses this. 

the crucial parts from @Dana Bell who is the chap write the books on this

 

"There are a couple of other reasons the model paint manufacturers have had problems matching the Sea Blues.  Most are working from the FS595 chips, which never accurately matched all three versions of the wartime colors.  The other problem is that the formula for ANA 623 Glossy Sea Blue changed in 1947/48.  The original color faded to quickly and was replaced with more resilient pigments.  When the US Navy gave modelers the old stocks of ANA paint chips in the 1960s/70s, some of us got the 1944 card-stock chip of ANA 623, while others got the 1948 metal replacement chips.  I can well remember the arguments back then, arguments that arose because we were working from different standards!"

 

also

"ANA606 semi gloss Sea Blue (atop the wings and horizontal tail), and ANA607 Non-Specular Sea Blue (atop the fuselage and on leading edges of the wings and stabs). The last two colors differ in more than the gloss factor - non-spec is distinctly grayer and lighter than the semi-gloss." 

 

The difference between the chips of ANA 607, 607 and 623 is subtle, and needs to be seen in good light. 

 

HTH

 

 

[11bravo]

I used Colourcoates for WW2 GSB (the color changed after the war), from other posts I’ve seen, this is supposed to be a very good match.    It also sprays extremely well.  

[Troy Smith]

18 minutes ago, 11bravo said:

I used Colourcoates for WW2 GSB (the color changed after the war), from other posts I’ve seen, this is supposed to be a very good match.    It also sprays extremely well.  

Colourcoats is matched to the chips in the book I mention, as well as data from Dana Bell and Nick Millman supplied to @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbiesof Sovereign Hobbies, makers of Colourcoats, see the linked discussion above.

 

Colourcoats are the only model paint company AFAIK  that match and make the full range of US Navy Sea Blues, ANA 606, 607, 623 and FS15042. 

[Seawinder]

Comparing Mr. Color C14 to the chip for ANA 623 in Elliott's book, C14 is a decent match for hue, but slightly darker. Considering that WW2 Gloss Sea Blue was notorious for weathering/fading, you could probably lighten it with a small amount of gray. Since Colourcoats are hard to come by on my side of the pond, this is what I'll be using for my F4U-1D. I've still got a small hoard of Model Master enamel Non-Specular Sea Blue, which I think looks the part.

[e8n2]

3 hours ago, Seawinder said:

Comparing Mr. Color C14 to the chip for ANA 623 in Elliott's book, C14 is a decent match for hue, but slightly darker. Considering that WW2 Gloss Sea Blue was notorious for weathering/fading, you could probably lighten it with a small amount of gray. Since Colourcoats are hard to come by on my side of the pond, this is what I'll be using for my F4U-1D. I've still got a small hoard of Model Master enamel Non-Specular Sea Blue, which I think looks the part.

Try the White Ensign Models website.  It is now being run by Tom's Modelworks.  I ordered some Naval paints from them a few weeks ago.  There was a slight delay waiting for one color to get back in stock, but it is a lot easier than trying to go through H&B Hobbies.

Later,

Dave

[-Ian-]

Thanks for the responses everyone, especially Troy for the interesting detail of exactly why there is uncertainty around exact colour matches. I'll try the Colourcoats option.

[11bravo]

12 hours ago, Seawinder said:

Comparing Mr. Color C14 to the chip for ANA 623 in Elliott's book, C14 is a decent match for hue, but slightly darker. Considering that WW2 Gloss Sea Blue was notorious for weathering/fading, you could probably lighten it with a small amount of gray. Since Colourcoats are hard to come by on my side of the pond, this is what I'll be using for my F4U-1D. I've still got a small hoard of Model Master enamel Non-Specular Sea Blue, which I think looks the part.

Seawinder - keep in mind that Colourcoats just recently got another US dealer stocked up.    I ordered some paint a few months back from them and received within a few days.   Let me know if you can't find the info on them and I'll dig it up for you. 

 

Edit - I see that this info was already provided above. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by 11bravo

[fishplanebeer]

It may be worth dropping James at Sovereign (Colourcoats) a quick e-mail to confirm the correct blue that you are after along with possible alternative sources/outlets as well. Have just ordered all the required 4 colours from them for the supposed 3 colour camo on my F4U-1A Corsair so they certainly seem to know their stuff.

 

Regards

Colin.

[PhantomBigStu]

Colour coats have it covered in enamels, wondering what other acrylics their are for the gloss and semi gloss, not done a tricolour usn one myself yet, just a scheme that only used non-spec sea blue, in that case Vallejo 898 Sea Blue.

Edited January 31, 2021 by PhantomBigStu

[11bravo]

10 hours ago, e8n2 said:

Try the White Ensign Models website.  It is now being run by Tom's Modelworks.  I ordered some Naval paints from them a few weeks ago.  There was a slight delay waiting for one color to get back in stock, but it is a lot easier than trying to go through H&B Hobbies.

Later,

Dave

I just went there to order some paints.   Looks like many of the paints that were stocked have sold out (including GSB).   If Jamie is perusing this thread - any idea when you'll have another shipment of paints out to the US?

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, 11bravo said:

I just went there to order some paints.   Looks like many of the paints that were stocked have sold out (including GSB).   If Jamie is perusing this thread - any idea when you'll have another shipment of paints out to the US?

 

 

 

Hi,

 

These are all in stock now and on my devices at least the webstore appears to be functioning correctly. What exactly is it showing for you?

[11bravo]

2 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Hi,

 

These are all in stock now and on my devices at least the webstore appears to be functioning correctly. What exactly is it showing for you?

Weird...   On my PC, I don't see GSB and a few other shades.   On my phone, I do.   I did note that on either device, they appear to be out of RAF Ocean Grey.   Also, did you guys ever offer RAF roundel blue and roundel red?  If so, those are missing as well.

 

Regards,

 

John 

[fishplanebeer]

Just checked Sovereign's UK site and they have Ocean Grey/ACRN07, Roundel Red/ACRN27 and Roundel Blue/ACRN39 currently in stock, along with GSB/ACUS34.

 

Regards

Colin.

[e8n2]

8 hours ago, 11bravo said:

Weird...   On my PC, I don't see GSB and a few other shades.   On my phone, I do.   I did note that on either device, they appear to be out of RAF Ocean Grey.   Also, did you guys ever offer RAF roundel blue and roundel red?  If so, those are missing as well.

 

Regards,

 

John 

Unfortunately, thanks to Al Qaeda and the like, paints can not be shipped by air to individuals from overseas anymore.  If you were to be a distributor, then you could get them by surface transportation, but that would mean a LOT of paint and would take a long time.  I bought some tins of Xtracolour paints about eight or nine years ago just before the ban on air transportation went into affect.  You can't do that anymore, and there have been times I wished I could still get paint from the UK, but no such luck.

Later,

Dave

[JPuente54]

@e8n2 kitlinx.com does sell the Xtracolour line of paints, you can check them for the ones in stock. Tru-color paint also offers the Deep Sea Blue for WW2(as opposed to the FS color one which they also offer), they call it "Deep Blue Black" and offer it in three "Flavors", Gloss, semi-Matt, and Matt. I presume they use that name to reduce grabbing the Post War color when one needs the WW2 color. And, yes, they have Intermediate Blue as a color as well. HTH

Joe

[e8n2]

I was able to get the Colourcoats versions of those paints when it came up about a year or so ago.  I know about True North paints, but Tru-color I have not heard of.  Do they have a website?  Sprue Brothers may still have a few tins left of Xtracolour, but I think that if they were going to restock them, it would have been done a long time ago.

Later,

Dave

[Jackson Duvalier]

I habitually use Tamiya paints, but part of that deal is that you're on your own to mix up colours.  I've yet to find any comprehensive guide to mixing Tamiya colours for the variations of blue relevant to the US Navy of WWII, but I've built models using pretty much all of those blues with kludged mixes, based on the colour photos available.  I'd share recipes but I've no idea if they're "accurate" for anyone else's Certain Values Of Accuracy-- I suspect not-- but they look acceptable to my eye on 1/72 models.

 

I must somewhat sheepishly add that I just sort of mix paint directly in the airbrush with drops from cocktail picks and squirts of thinner, so I've no data to share other than what I've gleaned from Tamiya instructions and strident autists on the internet.

 

If anybody challenges your choices, you can always drop some squid ink about UV radiation at altitude or a labour strike at the paint manufactory or degraded photo emulsion et cetera.  If they produce a vintage colour chip, ask them which edition it came from.

 

 

[JPuente54]

@e8n2 Tru-Color does have a site. It is: https://trucolorpaint.com. They have a large selection of WW2 USAAF/USN/USMC paints(no blue-grey, but, that may come), Luftwaffe, several RAF/FAA colors, and IJN/IJAAF paint.

Joe

[Troy Smith]

On 31/01/2021 at 00:04, -Ian- said:

The problem is the paint doesn't look blue enough to me, it's more dark like grey with a VERY slight hint of blue.

I know I posted this before Ian,  but the linked site

 

59 minutes ago, JPuente54 said:

Tru-Color does have a site. It is: https://trucolorpaint.com. They have a large selection of WW2 USAAF/USN/USMC paints(no blue-grey, but, that may come)

 

has those Sea Blues described as 

"ARMY-NAVY AIR CORP
TCP-1231   ANA-623, DEEP BLUE-BLACK
TCP-1232  ANA-606, SEMI-MATTE DEEP BLUE-BLACK
TCP-1233  ANA-607, MATTE DEEP BLUE-BLACK"

 

which is an interesting description.   Note a while back. 

  

On 31/12/2016 at 22:54, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

ANA623 isn't bright or vivid. It's dark and fairly smokey looking. 

 

 As an aside, I only discovered the information I posted on these via this site, and then was lucky enough to pick up the Monogram guide at the Aviation Bookshop secondhand.  

 

It an area that is so often incorrectly described in many sources, which surprises me given it's a popular modelling subject. 

[e8n2]

11 hours ago, JPuente54 said:

@e8n2 Tru-Color does have a site. It is: https://trucolorpaint.com. They have a large selection of WW2 USAAF/USN/USMC paints(no blue-grey, but, that may come), Luftwaffe, several RAF/FAA colors, and IJN/IJAAF paint.

Joe

Thanks.  I have it bookmarked now.

Later,

Dave