Hurricane Mk.IV radiator guard, another 'lost' detail

[Troy Smith]

Time for another bit of 'lost' Hurricane detail that I've not seen commented on. 

 

There are two Hurricane Mk.IV's in preservation, and a warbird rebuild, which can be ignored.

KX829 is hanging up in Birmingham, and is pretty complete, but was at a technical college from 1946 to the mid 60's, and has lost some ancillary bit, like the fairing at the back of the carb intake, the radiator armour, and the mesh discussed below.

 

The other Mk.IV  is in Belgrade in Serbia, and has provided some very useful information,  but also has raised doubts about certain aspects, for example, has ex F-86 Sabre wheels.

 

A good walkround is here

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2010/03/31/hawker-hurricane-mk-ivrp-in-museum-of-aviation-in-belgrade-serbia/

Now, I had noticed this mesh in the radiator,  which I wrote off as being in the dodgy wheels category, as I'd never seen anything like it. 

But, I was sent images from a Polish magazine, by @Jerzy Janaszewski,  about 309 (Polish) Sq use of the Hurricane IV,  and this image is fascinating for two reasons.

Hurricane IV 309 Sq damaged by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

It will enlarge.

First, that radiator mesh, which sent me off looking for for the Belgrade Mk.IV walkround, 

second, for the detail of how the rocket plates mount outside of the 40mm gun mounts. 

 

I mentioned this to @StevSmar  who is a Hurricane nuts and bolts chap,  and he sent me this! 

 

Hurricane IV rad mesh drawing 140278298_2856488961277380_586787734613669656_n by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

So, evidently some (all?) Mk.IV's and some Mk.IId's (the drawing mentions the IId) got this guard.

 

As it is a guard, to prevent ingestion of debris, from low flying,  or flak shrapnel, into the radiator.   

I've not gone on an image search, as can be seen, the mesh is only really visible under the right conditions,  

 

I'll add in @Sgifford as a Hurricane Mk.IV aficionado, and a @dragonlanceHR as he's relatively local, and I think will be interested for another special feature of the Belgrade Mk.IV, along with the CM/1 spinner. (perhaps the only one in preservation?)  @Supercuber has posted on Yugoslav Hurricanes, so perhaps also of interest.

 

Anyone know more on this? 

 

 

[StevSmar]

My guess, is that the radiator mesh and it's attachment fittings would have only been fitted as needed?

I'm also guessing that it was for low flying Hurricanes, it doesn't look like it would be effective for protection against bullets and flak.

[dogsbody]

I've also noticed that the Hurc in your photo doesn't seem to have a carb intake. I know there are a few photos of Canadian Hurricanes that are without the intake, too.

 

Here's an example:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Graham Boak]

I suspect that in the case of the Mk.IV, it had been swiped off in the crash that damaged the underside of the nose and the wing root.  In a more general case such as the Canadian example.  Without the ram effect of the forward facing intake, the pressure recovery would have been reduced and with it the power.  For a second-line/training role this may not have been considered vital.

[dogsbody]

23 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I suspect that in the case of the Mk.IV, it had been swiped off in the crash that damaged the underside of the nose and the wing root.  In a more general case such as the Canadian example.  Without the ram effect of the forward facing intake, the pressure recovery would have been reduced and with it the power.  For a second-line/training role this may not have been considered vital.

 

Ha ha ha! So I see the missing carb intake but missed all the dents and the broken prop. Ain't gettin' old a major P.I.T.A.!

 

 

 

Chris

[Graham Boak]

The other answer to the Canadian example could simply be "Yes, we know it's bust, we'll get round to fixing it when we can."  However if there are other known examples, probably not.  I sort-of wonder about icing problems on the intake, but there doesn't seem to have been any reports of such from Finland or Russia.

[Supercuber]

As requested by  @Troy Smith , some pics from Belgrade, 

Radiator, 

 

 

 

Spinner

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

F-86 Sabre wheel

 

 

 

[Sgifford]

The radiator mesh guard is visible on a photo of Hurricane KZ320 taken from the front quarter I have. Unfortunately, in pretty much every other photo where it might be possible to see the guard the radiator is in shadow so no detail can be made out.

 

Simon

[V Line]

Some excellent photographs here. Thank you Troy and Supercuber.

 

Lots of detail of interest and the dimensions on the dwg will help with correcting my Trumpeter Hurricane radiator.

 

I noted the absence of an oil deflector ring on the nose collar of the damaged aircraft posted by Troy and the Belgrade example which mirrors the situation on some other Mk IV’s pictured in theatre.

 

The absence of the deflector on the Belgrade example provides useful definition of the cowl collar shape (it looks to be original based on the rivet patterns) and relativity to the line of thrust and spinner. Photos 4 and 5 are very helpful in this regard.

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I'd be a little bit careful there, the spinner appears to be set a little high compared with the nose cowl  Either that or any reshaping of the front of this cowl ring has not worked out right.

[dragonlanceHR]

@Supercuber isn't the wheel from a Harvard?

Edited February 1, 2021 by dragonlanceHR

[dragonlanceHR]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I'd be a little bit careful there, the spinner appears to be set a little high compared with the nose cowl  Either that or any reshaping of the front of this cowl ring has not worked out right.

AFAIK there were no newly made parts for that museum Hurri. I'll check my refs when I get home.

[Graham Boak]

Maybe not, but at some stage there has been some kind of "bodge" or fit problems.

[Work In Progress]

1 hour ago, dragonlanceHR said:

@Supercuber isn't the wheel from a Harvard?

 

It's not the T-6 wheel I'm used to. Looks F-86 to me.

Which ties in with the fact that the Yugoslav air force had some Sabres, but didn't run a T-6 variant as far as I know. They put people in Zlins and then transitioned those who didn't wash out straight into the Galeb

Edited February 1, 2021 by Work In Progress

[72modeler]

Bless my soul- the famous F-86D wheels, but without the massive brake assemblies! These are excellent detail photos and I will definitely save them for future reference! Thank you so much for sharing these, @Supercuber, maybe the next time you have a chance, could you get on a  stepladder and take a couple of photos of the upper wings that show the access panels, as this is clearly a Mk IV? Either way, what you have posted is appreciated!

Mike 

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

could you get on a  stepladder and take a couple of photos of the upper wings that show the access panels, as this is clearly a Mk IV?

Mike, see here as this should cover your request

 

From images,  and the usual hawker practice of building on what you know works, the Mk.IV wing is based on the IIc wing, note the leading edge, with what would be the front access panels for the cannon,  left to right, blanked landing light, 0.303 sighting gun, blanked cannon port, camera gun,  wing joint faring.

 

 

 

You can see this is based on the IIc wing, with only the outer cannon access hatch, and then a small D hatch to the rear, which I believe was for sighting the 40 mm guns. 

 

The underside has more changes,  Hmm, let me refind the Flickr of the KX829, as this shows these really well. 

[Troy Smith]

23 hours ago, V Line said:

Lots of detail of interest and the dimensions on the dwg will help with correcting my Trumpeter Hurricane radiator.

Which variant?   While The Trumpeter Hurricane is really good in overall shapes,  I think they just tooled up the one radiator for the Mk.I and Mk.II kits,  basically using a Mk.I rad with Mk.II inner.

 

I only have the IIc Trop,   and I think they also missed the two types of carb intake for the Mk.I vs Mk.II.   

 

Memory tells me the 'bullet' Rotol spinner is dodgy, but I've not given it a look since I found decent photos of the two spinner types.  

 

I'm being lazy and not digging out the kit.  I shall later.

[72modeler]

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Mike, see here as this should cover your request

Thanks so  much, Troy- can't believe I missed your original post! If Arma doesn't do a Mk IV/V kit, which I think is doable but doubtful, I think I have enough photo and print references to do them both as conversions. (I'm saving two of my Arma Mk IIc's for just that purpose!) I do appreciate your taking the time to re-post the link and the photos.  

Mike

[V Line]

On 01/02/2021 at 20:35, Troy Smith said:

Which variant?   While The Trumpeter Hurricane is really good in overall shapes,  I think they just tooled up the one radiator for the Mk.I and Mk.II kits,  basically using a Mk.I rad with Mk.II inner.

 

I only have the IIc Trop,   and I think they also missed the two types of carb intake for the Mk.I vs Mk.II.   

 

Memory tells me the 'bullet' Rotol spinner is dodgy, but I've not given it a look since I found decent photos of the two spinner types.  

 

I'm being lazy and not digging out the kit.  I shall later.

Troy,

You are correct in thinking that the Mk I and Mk II kits have identical parts and do seem to be a compromise concoction. Here are my thoughts on the shortcomings and potential fixes.

 

For the Mk I - the mouth is rather agape. The fairing depth looks about right but perhaps the shape requires some finessing. The Airfix version looks more like the real thing and its’ opening can be used as a size/shape guide. Gluing some strip inside the opening and some sanding would probably fix it.

 

According to the mesh grille dwg, it seems the the Mk II opening should be about 2 inches greater in the vertical. The width looks about right. I think the solution lies in Stevesmar’s explanation as to how the radiator fairing was deepened in production i.e. cutting though the mid-point of the mouth and a corresponding line in the rear section/kit part and inserting a 2mm plastic strip to create the extra depth. I may have a go at this over the weekend.

 

Regarding the spinners:

 

‘Bullet’ Spinner – is rather ‘bulbous’ and needs some work. It’s important to decide which version is to be chosen before sanding commences. The backplate, as it stands, is too shallow to be a CSA type and for that and the CM version, I believe the diameter to be slightly oversized.

 

The Mk I spinner has what I consider to be base plate which is there or thereabouts in diameter but again is too shallow for an ES6. The spinner shell is a very good effort.

 

I believe the real problem is the width of the cowl collar opening which can be increased by carefully cutting away that section from the fuselage halves and inserting spreader pieces in the joins between the parts to form a new whole separate piece which is what I have done. The width of the collar at the fuselage end is pretty much spot on with measurement of actual aircraft and should be maintained.

 

With these kits it is a rather important to own a fine razor saw for maximum effect.

I hadn’t picked up on the carb intakes – thank you -and will have a looksee.

[Troy Smith]

On 30/01/2021 at 19:29, dogsbody said:

I've also noticed that the Hurc in your photo doesn't seem to have a carb intake.

 

On 30/01/2021 at 20:18, Graham Boak said:

I suspect that in the case of the Mk.IV, it had been swiped off in the crash that damaged the underside of the nose and the wing root

The  Hurricane II manual, in the brief,  but crucial paragraph on the Mk.IV, says the carb intake can be removed an piece of gauze used 

Addendum II 

General

end of section 2

"On later aircraft the carburettor scoop has been removed, a gauze filter being provided at the air intake under the fuselage"

 

 

 

ON the subject of Mk.IV detail

Hawker Hurricane  - P3395 Think Tank 025 by touluru, on Flickr

 

does the head armour look thicker?  

 

compare

 

this image shows what look like different bolts,  also compare the strengthened side cross pieces on the Mk.IV,  the side panels were armour glass as well as the front. 

Hurricane HW189 head armour by losethekibble, on Flickr

@StevSmar @Sgifford   

any thoughts? 

[Sgifford]

Hi Troy,

 

not sure about the back armour but the side panels on the front windscreen were specific to the Hurricane IV. The last few Hurricane IVs that were produced by 320 MU at Drigh Road in India in 1945 were held up due to a lack of the starboard front panels - eventually the remaining crated airframes were not assembled and just written off.

 

Simon

[Troy Smith]

35 minutes ago, Sgifford said:

but the side panels on the front windscreen were specific to the Hurricane IV.

Late IID's had them as well. This is KX171 at the NII VVS (Soviet test centre)

Added armour visible on fuselage, windshield and radiator, 

 

Also visible on KX305, also at NII VVS

 

 

 

though not visible on KW704

 

Be interesting if there is any information in production records about the introduction of armour.