1950's vehicle colours - two questions

[bootneck]

Although I am an Accrington lad, most of my childhood was spent in Birmingham and I am building a dio that requires brummie vehicles.  My queries are:

-- what colours were the blue and cream of Birmingham's buses?  If they were aircraft then they would have BSC colour numbers but I don't know about vehicles.

-- is there a site that I can source colour images of civilian cars, buses and ex-military lorries that would be seen around Birmingham, especially the city centre, in the 1950's?

 

I only seem to remember black cars although there would have been other colours.  I do remember lorries at Birminham New Street, Snow Hill and Moor Street stations that were red and cream or possibly green, although I may have transgressed into the 1960's versions.   I was a keen train spotter, hence remembering vehicles at stations.

 

Any help and advice on my queries would be gratefully appreciated.  I have only recently started gathering vehicle kits for my dioramas so don't have much info to go on.  My scale is 1:144 and I prefer buying kits, usually white metal, in that scale and painting them myself, hence the request for help on colours.

 

EDIT:  I forgot to mention, for any colours that are identified then I would need to work out the nearest Vallejo Model or Model Air match; as these are the paints in my collection.

 

cheers,

Mike

[Six97s]

I've only seen the colours referred to as Oxford blue and cream.  You might ask http://www.wythall.org.uk/ what they use on their restorations.

 

Edit:  if I had to guess, I'd look at BS381C  105 Oxford Blue and 352 Pale Cream.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Six97s

[bootneck]

Thanks, I've just looked at the site but they say they are closed until March 27th; however, Oxford Blue and just plain cream could work as I have those colours.  I shall give that a try.

Still looking for vehicle colours, especially the ex-military lorries that were bought for commercial goods use.

 

cheers,

Mike

[bentwaters81tfw]

Wouldn't the red and white/cream be British Railways vehicles?

[bootneck]

I would think so but which red?   I have at least three in my Vallejo pots:  scarlet, signal red, and fire red.  Also have crimson and turn signal red.

 

[Pete in Lincs]

When I was a lad, it always puzzled me why so many lorries were combinations of red and green.

Logically, a lot of post war haulage firms would have started up by using ex Military vehicles. It's green, we'll paint a bit of red on it. It'll stand out.

By the time I started taking notice, they would be on their second or third generation of vehicles, but still keeping the same scheme. So that would be mid '60's.

So, I'd say shades of green with red or maybe black wheel arches and trim?  Was a 'clean' white generally available?

Brown was still an option for wooden trim in houses back then. We didn't start using white until the 60's IIRC, when China clay was more easily available/cheaper.

Here's an idea, google fairground vehicles. They tend to use traditional schemes.

 

[bootneck]

Hi Pete,

 

I'm looking for something more specific than general themes, hence my request for vehicle related sites where enthusiasts would have more data and hopefully colour images.  When it comes to colours and liveries of vehicles, I am assuming that cars and major truck companies; plus the rail and road networks, would have the painting done at the factory and therefore, have specific paint colour matches.  It would of course be a different story for all the ex-military vehicles that were sold into commercial use postwar; they were more likely to get their paintwork done under the railway arches garages that sprung up everywhere.  Their colours are probably less discernable as to specific type.

 

One of the dioramas I have underway involves buses such as these.  There is an Oxford diecast 1:148 scale model similar to the one on the left, although I would prefer to build and paint kits.  The one on the right is a Leyland PS2/1 with Weymann coachwork and I don't think anyone has produced one of these in 1:144 scale or N Gauge yet; except perhaps me. 

 

 

Another scene from the same area of the airport.  Even in this small area, there are lots of little items of note for a scratchbuild but the lorry the colour of the lorry is not easy to identify.  I bet if I could find an vehicle enthusiasts forum then they would be shouting the colours at me; probably even know the driver's name!

 

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

 

[bentwaters81tfw]

Well they are Midland Railway, later LMS colours, so that is Crimson Lake.

[bootneck]

Thanks,  I shall look up Crimson Lake and hope to find a match.

 

cheers,
Mike

[mbdesignart]

Try Birmingham & Midlands Museum of Transport.

[keefr22]

2 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Well they are Midland Railway, later LMS colours, so that is Crimson Lake.

 

Wouldn't the colours on that Scammell be Carmine and Cream - as those were the BR colours used on coaching stock and other vehicles at the time? And doesn't the vehicle in the pic have an eastern region number on the cab door?

 

Railmatch do an acrylic paint for it Mike

 

https://anticsonline.uk/Product/Railmatch-RM2311-BR-Crimson-1949-1957-18ml-Acrylic-Paint_N105410719

 

and cream;

 

https://anticsonline.uk/Product/Railmatch-RM2312-BR-Cream-1949-1957-18ml-Acrylic-Paint_N105410735

 

According to posts in this thread on RMweb, LMS Crimson Lake is closer to the later BR coaching stock maroon;

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/86127-best-paint-match-for-br-carmine-and-cream/page/2/&tab=comments#comment-3853526

 

Keith

 

 

[keefr22]

Just did a bit of googling out of interest Mike, and don't know if these may be of help;

 

http://www.wythall.org.uk/vehicles/vjoj533.asp

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/89879/oxford_diecast_nut004_guy_arab_birmingham/stockdetail.aspx

 

Keith

 

 

[bootneck]

Hi Keith,  thanks for the link.  'scuse my ignorance but does that mean the rail coaches were the same colours as the road vehicles?  I've found a match in Vallejo for the crimson and will experiment with it tomorrow.

I do follow Hatton's and Oxford's diecast sites; however, as I mentioned, I prefer to build kits and paint them myself.   I do have quite a large collection of them now but they are just sat there with white or grey primer applied, I just don't know the colours to paint them in.  I have all manner of cars, vans and lorries waiting to be painted when I know the details.

 

There are some vehicles that aren't available in my scale and so I have started to learn CAD, to make them myself, such as this Leyland PS1 Weymann.  I have printed this on my 3D printer and, thanks to six97's recommendation, I shall paint it in Birmingham City colours of Oxford Blue and Pale Cream.

 

 

I also plan to make some military vehicles for my other dio's that aren't available as kits in 1:144 scale, such as this 3 ton Queen Mary trailer. 

These two models aren't overly accurate, just the basic lenght and breadth really, but they are only for background detail therefore they will be ideal for my requirements.

 

I have noticed on the Hatton's site that they have a 1:76 scale model of a civilian version in Wynn's livery but I've never seen any photo's of the real thing.  I think I might do mine in that red, as a civilian, but wonder what it would have carried in civil life.

 

Thanks again,

Mike

 

 

 

[Black Knight]

I'm not sure if this will be much help but here goes;

During the 1990s I was involved with a N.I. company which restored vintage commercial vehicles. We did a wide range of vehicles from small vans to low-loaders and in age from 1927 to about 1974

 

1. we did UTA vehicles, UTA = Ulster Transport Authority. They ran trains, buses, coaches and delivery vans. Their colours, on everything, was cream over Oxford Blue. The cream was more like Old English White and was a specified mix but the Oxford Blue varied from a mid- blue to almost a midnight-blue. We refinished as per the original vehicle if we could find an original painted surface, usually under the bonnet.

 

2. We did old Eire transport buses and vans, same as UTA vehicles but their colours were the same cream over 'Irish Green' just about the same as Humbrol 3 Brunswick Green. On their vehicles we had to use a specified colour coded mix no matter what we found on the original vehicle

 

3. Commercial vehicle owners either brought their very first or one of their very first vehicles for us to restore or we had to source the example for them but that was rare. Almost all these commercial users, especially of HGV started, with ex-military trucks.

With the ex-military the civilian owners kept them in the military green and just painted a few panels and on those panels they had had painted the company name and details. Often the truck doors were still green and the sign writing was in solid black, or gold with black dropped shadow. Tail gates were fully repainted, often in cream/off white and the sign writing done on the new colour, the sign writing being any colour the new owner fancied

In 1994 we did a semi-restoration on a Matador fitted with a Coles crane. It was still in its war-time green with black Mickey Mouse pattern on it. The owner just wanted the mechanicals working again

We did a mainly mechanical restoration of a Scammell trailer. It was used for moving heaving road building machines. The company which owned it had over-sprayed the military green with an almost scarlet red which we found matched a certain Ferrari red. We had to source a new tractor unit for it but that wasn't part of my portfolio so I don't know what the tractor was except it wasn't a Scammell

 

4. Small vans; came from Ford, Morris, Austin and were in colours such as, dark green, dark red, dark blue, light grey. Mid-blue was only on RAC vans and yellow on AA or Post Office Telephones vans. Very few vans came from military except a few ex-Royal Navy Bedford CA crew buses which remained in RN applied dark blue and the new company name sign-written along the sides, and back doors

[bootneck]

Thanks,   that's quite enlightening as i shall progress on to other decades including the 70's eventually.

 

Mike

[keefr22]

9 hours ago, bootneck said:

'scuse my ignorance but does that mean the rail coaches were the same colours as the road vehicles? 

 

Hi Mike, I'm no expert, but yes I believe so - at least in the carmine and cream days. Not sure what colours the road vehicles were when the coaching stock went to the darker maroon. My 'knowledge' as it is, is just what I've picked up over many years lurking on model railway forums and reading model railway magazines as I've started and never finished a number of small layouts! 

 

I did see that you said you preferred building kits, I didn't know whether the colours of the buses in the pics might have given you a steer to the colours used. Similarly I wonder whether the colours on these models may help?

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2020_12/1984379106_Buses-Lineup800x400.jpg.27dc8e6caebedf9abef9ea4facd030c5.jpg

 

Interestingly I notice the third one in from the left is a different colour blue! (and to me that looks like Oxford Blue)

 

Those designs for your 3D printer look very good!

 

Keith

 

[keefr22]

27 minutes ago, bootneck said:

i shall progress on to other decades including the 70's eventually.

 

That brought to mind a blog I'm following by a guy building a model railway of Birmingham New Street in the 70's (I think, it may stretch into the 80's). Anyway, he does a lot of posts on road vehicles for the layout, so it might be a worth a browse to see if there's anything that might be of use in the future?

 

His lorries are here;

 

https://www.p4newstreet.com/lorries

 

and

 

https://www.p4newstreet.com/category/road-vehicles

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[Six97s]

Have a look here:  https://ccmv.aecsouthall.co.uk/f552295240

 

Mainly restored vehicles, but there are a few period photos in there.

[bootneck]

Another good site, thanks.

I managed to print the Leyland bus and it looks OK.  It just needs cleaning up before giving it a coat of primer.

 

I jumped ahead and also tried the Oxford Blue and Pale Cream colours.  I do have Vallejo Oxford Blue but not Pale Cream, so I used Pale Sand and that looks very near to the correct colour to me.  Thanks again for the advice on that.

 

I shall finish painting it shortly.  In the background just a few of the many cars, vans and lorries that have been primed,  just waiting details on colours to paint them in.

 

cheers,

Mike

[Prop Duster]

 A very interesting "quest" you have here.  It is good you are trying to match actual colours used. It should make the model that much more impressive. 

The background showing your vehicles "waiting in the wings" looks like a lot of fun for the future.🚌

[bootneck]

Thanks Steve.

Does anyone here know what colour the mudguards are? Black or Oxford Blue?   I can't tell from any of the photo's I seen as it all seems to blend in with the bodywork.

cheers,
Mike

[Terry1954]

2 hours ago, bootneck said:

Does anyone here know what colour the mudguards are? Black or Oxford Blue? 

 

I'd say black Mike. Go take a look at this link and what you think?

 

https://wmbusphotos.com/preserved/bct2231.html

 

I found a few by googling on the registration.

 

Terry

[Circloy]

My insticnct was to say  that mudguards tended to be painted black but the high gloss on the photo you've posted could be taken both ways.

 

Tere's a photo of the same bus on the old bus photo's website that again suggests blue but the colours look shifted

http://www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/JOJ-231.jpg

 

however if you follow the sites thread on BCT

http://www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?cat=200

a lot appear to have black mudguards

 

you arive at a sister vehicle where the mudguards are definately black

http://www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/JOJ-245.jpg

 

see @Terry1954 has replied with similar info

 

[bootneck]

Thanks both, that is really helpful and I shall go with black.

 

Another query, can anyone please tell me what type of car and lorry are depicted in the black and white photo's I posted previously?   The car is on the far right of the two buses and only shows a tiny portion of it.

 

cheers,

Mike

[Pete in Lincs]

4 hours ago, bootneck said:

car and lorry are depicted 

No idea on the car. But I'm reasonably confident that the Lorry is a 1948  Austin. As used by the Army. I drove one once. Hard work!