colour match for a dark blue French Aeronavale Vampire.

[Selwyn]

Can anyone give me a steer as to what dark Blue colour was used on French Navy Vampires?

 

 

Selwyn

[Hook]

They look like US Navy Glossy Sea Blue to me. The French used several USN types like the Corsair, Avenger and Bearcat, this might have been the reason to adopt this shade for non-US types as well.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

Edited January 23, 2021 by Hook

[Blimpyboy]

 

This chap used Humbrol 77, but I’m not sure if that’s a good enough reference:

http://modelstories.free.fr/analyses/avions/MS2014_12P/AZUR_VAMPIRE/

 

 

This site contains details used to make an Aquilon (Sea Venom)

https://designer.home.xs4all.nl/models/seavenom/seavenom-3.html

It states:

”For the French Aquilon it was very difficult to establish the overall colour. Some sources suggested French midnight blue... what ever that colour is? Information was obtained from IPMS France,  La VdM No.11 publication. Also, sources indicated that the standard colour for French navy aircraft in that period was "bleu marine brillant" (gloss sea blue). The US equivalent was FS25042. But considerable variations in colours were seen, some planes coming from the US, others from Britain and the French planes. The Aquilon was no exception as can be seen on the rare colour pictures, its colour was quite different”.

and

”Merci Mr. A. Dulieu / IPMS France for the information!

I looked at several Aquilon colour pictures and choose to use Revell SM350 blue”.

 

Do you think it could have been the same for the Mistral?

Edited January 24, 2021 by Blimpyboy

[scotthldr]

Gloss Sea Blue ANA623.

[Graham Boak]

That long after the war, it is most unlikely that they would be using ANA anything.  The USN did change the Sea Blue Gloss postwar, and I would expect to see that, but don't have any kind of confirmation.

[Giorgio N]

43 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

That long after the war, it is most unlikely that they would be using ANA anything.  The USN did change the Sea Blue Gloss postwar, and I would expect to see that, but don't have any kind of confirmation.

 

ANA colours were still used as references in USAF documents in the mid '60s, so it would have still been a well known standard in the early to mid '50s. Not saying with this that the Aeronavale used an ANA colour, just that the standard was used for quite a long time after the war.

[Graham Boak]

Two comments: what the USAF did and what the USN did should never be assumed the same.  And as the USN had specifically changed their Sea Blue Gloss, they would have no reason to quote the old standard.  Given that the USAF didn't use Sea Blue Gloss of any kind...  (There's a hostage to fortune if ever I wrote one, but I'm pretty sure it's right!)  

[Giorgio N]

9 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Two comments: what the USAF did and what the USN did should never be assumed the same.  And as the USN had specifically changed their Sea Blue Gloss, they would have no reason to quote the old standard.  Given that the USAF didn't use Sea Blue Gloss of any kind...  (There's a hostage to fortune if ever I wrote one, but I'm pretty sure it's right!)  

 

Well, the last ANA colour was replaced by the USN in 1970, so even later than what the USAF did. That again just means that colours from the "old" ANA list were in use for quite a long time.

Now of course by the '60s FS colours were predominant, but in the '50s things were different: the FS catalogue was introduced in 1956, so if the Aeronavale specified the same dark blue used by the USN colour before that year they could have not requested a paint made to the FS specifications. What they could have requested was Blue 1505 as included in the short lived TT-C-595, This was a standard introduced in 1949-50 that absorbed a number of ANA colours. Now my understanding is that such colours did not change, so 1505 should be the same as ANA 623... with the caveat that the standard for 623 had been modified in IIRC 1948 from the original one because it was found that the "old" 623 weathered excessively (see a couple of good threads in the WW2 section of this same forum).

According to the official history page on the French MoD website, Escadrille 57S received their Vampires starting in July 1953, so this points to the use of specifications predating the use of FS595.

 

Now all the above can be interesting (or not...) from the perspective of the history of aircraft colours but in the end each modeller may or not worry about the fact that ANA 623 was not the same as 15042 and that 1944 ANA 623 was not the same as 1948 ANA 623.. unfortunately I don't know of any good colour picture of these aircraft, I've only seen B/W ones ( with the exception of one in a later silver scheme) and from these it would be impossible to decide which of the three paint was used. Of course if a paint similar to the USN one was actually specified.

There are pictures of the later Aquilon and these may be used to get an idea of the kind of colour used and help the modeller decide which of the various Sea Blue Gloss paints around is closer. But again I don't know if the Aquilons were painted in the same colour as the Vampires.

 

[Graham Boak]

My understanding is that the colour did change in the late 40s.  The reason was, as you say, that the wartime colour was judged to fade excessively.  As you say, FS came later.   The comment about the difference in colour has been made several times on this site and others - sorry but I did not note which or who or in what threads.  I had not realised that the reference to the colour did not change even though the colour did - seems like a recipe for misunderstandings around the time of the change though it is easy to understand why they did not think about nor care for modellers decades later!

[scotthldr]

19 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Two comments: what the USAF did and what the USN did should never be assumed the same.  And as the USN had specifically changed their Sea Blue Gloss, they would have no reason to quote the old standard.  Given that the USAF didn't use Sea Blue Gloss of any kind...  (There's a hostage to fortune if ever I wrote one, but I'm pretty sure it's right!)  

and what the Aeronavale did shouldn’t be assumed to be what the USN did. Just because the USN changed their specs to suit their needs, doesn’t automatically apply that everyone did as well at the same time. The Vampire was a British a/c bought by the French and was painted in a colour of their choice, the USN had no input. If you want to paint your car ANA 623 tomorrow you can easily get paint to that spec from paint manufacturers. ANA623 didn’t disappear off the face of the Earth just because the USN stopped using it.

[Graham Boak]

Nor did any one of the umpty similar "midnight" blues that the French could have used, not least their own.  But where is the evidence that they did?  You got it?  

[scotthldr]

As I don’t have the actual specification sheet from back in 1948/49, then no I don’t have the ‘beyond all doubt’ evidence that you seek. However if you look at all the available evidence online, it narrows it down to being ANA623. 

 

By the way where’s  your evidence that they didn’t use ANA623,  as the logic behind your reply is flawed.

Edited January 25, 2021 by scotthldr

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

The change in shade of ANA623 dates to 1947, according to Dana Bell.

 

FS595 did/does make equivalence statements back to the ANA colours, but I'd trust them about as far as I'd trust Jimmy Saville with my daughters. I interpret them to be statements on their pre-FS595 equivalents.

 

Still, given the relatively subtle difference between wartime ANA623 and FSx5042 in the grand scheme of things, and the apparent uncertainty over exactly what the subject of this thread used, combined with anecdotal evidence about variations depending on several things including where the aircraft came from, I can't get too excited about it. I think it less likely that a British built Vampire would be wearing American made ANA623 paint, and more likely that the Vampires were painted in either a British or French made shade which was a practical match for other aircraft the French had such as Corsairs which probably were in American made ANA623.

[AV O]

On 24/01/2021 at 12:52, Blimpyboy said:

 

This chap used Humbrol 77, but I’m not sure if that’s a good enough reference:

http://modelstories.free.fr/analyses/avions/MS2014_12P/AZUR_VAMPIRE/

 

 

There must be some misunderstanding here :

 

The colour used is Humbrol  104. :

Affectionnant particulièrement les appareils de la Marine, c'est donc la livrée de l'Aéronavale à "Hameçons" qui est choisie pour ce montage. Tout le modèle est peint en bleu foncé Humbrol 104 en 2 couches successives de 24 heures.

 

67 is used for the cockpit colour.

77 for highlighting panels and structure scribing lines.

Edited January 25, 2021 by AV O

[scotthldr]

31 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I think it less likely that a British built Vampire would be wearing American made ANA623 paint, and more likely that the Vampires were painted in either a British or French made shade which was a practical match for other aircraft the French had such as Corsairs which probably were in American made ANA623.

It doesn’t matter that ANA623 is an American paint code. If the French wanted their Vampires to be painted that colour( in order to match everything else at the time), then it’s just as easy for a British manufacturer to produce that than it would be say BS633. 

 

The only thing I see of importance is that ANA623 changed specifications in 1947, whereas FS* 5042 came much later, so we can rule that out. So what is the closest match to post 1947 ANA623 ?

[Blimpyboy]

6 hours ago, AV O said:

There must be some misunderstanding here :

 

The colour used is Humbrol  104.

That’d be right - me and my French language ‘skills’!

 

Je suis embarrassé.

(let’s hope I got that one correct)!

 

 Thanks 🙏 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Blimpyboy

[expositor]

Not that I can contribute much, but a British plane, if made in the UK, might be Oxford Blue, no?  Is it possible the French painted these with stocks of US paint they had for their US built naval aircraft?  Maybe, but again, couldn't Oxford Blue be more likely for new construction in Britain?

[Blimpyboy]

There was a similar discussion, regarding French Lancasters, here:

Does Royal Blue belong to any country’s standards?

[Giorgio N]

2 hours ago, expositor said:

Not that I can contribute much, but a British plane, if made in the UK, might be Oxford Blue, no?  Is it possible the French painted these with stocks of US paint they had for their US built naval aircraft?  Maybe, but again, couldn't Oxford Blue be more likely for new construction in Britain?

 

The Vampire may have been a British plane but they were not necessarily built in the UK: France received 30 ex RAF F.1 (not relevant here), 90 ex RAF FB.5, 67 FB.51 built in France from British made parts and 120 FB.52 completely built in France.

And there's more against the use of British blue paints: all Aeronavale aircraft had been previously in service with the Armee de l'Air and this service aircraft were painted in silver, meaning that all French Vampires left the factory so finished. The dark blue paint was applied in France.

[scotthldr]

2 hours ago, expositor said:

Not that I can contribute much, but a British plane, if made in the UK, might be Oxford Blue, no?  Is it possible the French painted these with stocks of US paint they had for their US built naval aircraft?  Maybe, but again, couldn't Oxford Blue be more likely for new construction in Britain?

I would be very surprised if the French or any other country had quantities of any paint sitting around waiting to be used(out with a factory). Paint has a shelf life and it's far more economical to mix batches as and when required.  Both Oxford Blue and Royal Blue(mentioned in the post below yours), are both part of BS381c which came into effect in 1948, so the timeframe fits, but the thing is I've never seen or heard of either being referenced to when it comes to French Aeronavale a/c, it's always Gloss Sea Blue or Dark Sea Blue.

 

This is a subject that could be discussed for eternity and we'd still have no 100% answer. If it was my model then I would be looking for the best match to post 1947/48 ANA623.

Edited January 26, 2021 by scotthldr

[Blimpyboy]

 

Extrapolating again from the Lancaster, this site indicates that a British-style blue may have been replaced in service with a US-style blue: http://www.netmarine.net/aero/unites/25f/histoire1952-58.htm

Given my execrable French (see what I did there), I used Google Translate to get:

"On Tuesday January 22, 1952, in the early morning hours, Lieutenant-Commander Mellet took off a 'royal blue' Lancaster from Saint Eval in Great Britain to reach Port-Lyautey."

and

"The 'royal blue' paint will be abandoned in favor of a dark blue 'US Navy' as soon as it is put into service in formation."

 

 

And, if the Aquilon is any guide - bleu nuit brillant (whatever that is):

 

 

 

But, back to the Vampire. If not already seen - glossy sea blue and midnight blue:

and

 

 

Clear as mud, eh?

 

Good luck!

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Blimpyboy

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

10 hours ago, scotthldr said:

It doesn’t matter that ANA623 is an American paint code. If the French wanted their Vampires to be painted that colour( in order to match everything else at the time), then it’s just as easy for a British manufacturer to produce that than it would be say BS633. 

 

The only thing I see of importance is that ANA623 changed specifications in 1947, whereas FS* 5042 came much later, so we can rule that out. So what is the closest match to post 1947 ANA623 ?

 

It's FS15042, which isn't an exact match for pre-1947 ANA623.

 

My point is that it was unlikely to have been American made paint imported, and instead something made either where the aircraft were built or in the operator's own country which was a practical match. It seems to be in the realms of the non-productive to be debating pre or post 1947 ANA623 when it was probably someone else's commercial match to it anyway - a hypothesis on my part but one supported by above anecdotal evidence of large variations in colour observed between aircraft.

[Selwyn]

I will go with FS15042, on my model, lets face it, it it looks like nobody can prove me wrong!

 

Selwyn

[scotthldr]

10 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

It's FS15042, which isn't an exact match for pre-1947 ANA623.

 

My point is that it was unlikely to have been American made paint imported,

 

Maybe I’m missing something here, but why would they need to import the paint from the US.  Any paint manufacturer anywhere in the World would be able to mix up the paint to the ANA623 specification?
 

So is FS*5042 and post 1947 ANA623 more or less the same?

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

7 minutes ago, scotthldr said:

Maybe I’m missing something here, but why would they need to import the paint from the US.  Any paint manufacturer anywhere in the World would be able to mix up the paint to the ANA623 specification?
 

So is FS*5042 and post 1947 ANA623 more or less the same?

 

 

Yes and yes, but in the 1950s it would be done using weighed pigments and eyeballing the resultant specimen against a shade card. Technology existed for objective measurement, but the calculations were deeply involved mathematics and the preserve of people with letters after their names. What I'm speculating at is that someone's close-enough commercial match may have been further away from the post 1947 standard than the pre 1947 standard was. I think using FS15042 is safe territory for this