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F-4 SEA Camo Schemes I vs II


Sierra Mike Sierra

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Hi folks,

 

I have come to a dead end with my research regarding the prevalence of SEA camo schemes on F-4s. Disregarding the wraparound scheme, there are obviously two with light grey undersides.

One of them seems to have a bit more of the Dark Tan (FS 30219) and the color stretches from the portside of the fuselage somewhat diagonal behind the cockpit to the starboard side. I have read that's called "SEA Scheme II".

 

F-4-Phantom-II-Collings-Foundation-X60.j 

 

The other scheme has less Dark Tan and the color does not strech from the port to the starboard side. It is (allegedely called SEA Scheme I).

 

1280px-QF-4-Holloman-AFB-X70.jpg

 

Does anybody know the "painting rules", if any, and which of the two schemes was more common? It seems SEA Scheme II was much more used than the other, but I am unsure if a RF-4C would ever get SEA Scheme I. 

 

Cheers

 

Stefan 

 

 

Edited by Sierra Mike Sierra
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I'd hazard a guess that SEA 1 was to the original paint scheme and that most Vietnam era a/c were so-painted. 

Afraid it'll be an a/c by a/c search of photos to get an exact answer but I can't recall seeing an RF-4 with the extra dark green (now prepared to be proved wrong!)

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Stefan

I have just done a quick look at a few books, (including Airdoc USAFE Phantoms, C&M 13 post Vietnam F-4Es and Vliegen voor de Vrede (USAF in Europe)  and this may help.

For what you call the SEA 2 scheme I can find pictures of F-4Es with PN, OS, RS and SJ tail codes; F-4Gs with SP code but no USAF RF-4Cs. The only short nose Phantom I could find with the "extra green" was the Spanish F-4C at Greenham Common IAT in 1977 and that was not uniform across the Spanish fleet.

 

The 2nd picture you post is one of the heritage jets specifically repainted in a former F-4 scheme - converted to a drone after "retirement".

Is the first picture of the Collings Foundation a/c? 

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Julian, that picture is of the Collings Foundation a/c which has been refurbished and repainted- be great to see it as the star exhibit in Gloucestershire in July!

 

I have just been checking through D&S 1 (F-4C/D and Rf-4C) and have found a picture of an RF-4C with the extra dark green camo. She is RF-4C-23-MC 64-1066 assigned to the Minnesota ANG.

Tail codes are all white, she is covered in stencils (white on the green, black on the tan) and the fin cap has a band on - probably green, bordered in gold. Arrestor Hook warning is applied just in front of the stab and she has, in white, the name Minnesota in the same position as RAF Phantoms carried the serial (letters look about 8 inch high) - also carrying 3 tanks.

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It looks to me like the camouflage pattern on the QF-4E in your second photo doesn’t follow the T.O., while the Collings F-4D does. After a quick look through Google, I don’t see any F-4s with the same pattern as the QF-4E. I’ll stand by while someone posts 1000 photos to prove me wrong... 😁
 

As discussed in another thread, there were some minor differences between the factory camo pattern and the pattern specified in the T.O. Could those two be what’s being referred to as “SEA 1” and “SEA 2”?
 

Ben

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46 minutes ago, Ben Brown said:

..............I don’t see any F-4s with the same pattern as the QF-4E. I’ll stand by while someone posts 1000 photos to prove me wrong... 😁

 

Not 1000's but here are some that may be of interest

 

http://britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235083144-green-flag-81-3-339tfs-f-4e/

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235069811-green-flag-81-3-563tfs-f-4g/&tab=comments#comment-3619782

 

note WW 69-216 in a 'halfway house' of the two schemes

 

and some RF-4C's in a wrap-around version of 'SEA II'.  note also BA 72-147 in the 'halfway house' Scheme.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235072007-just-passing-through-91trs-rf-4c/&tab=comments#comment-3662171

 

For my 'two cents', there can be a lot of variation in SEA schemes, and no two F-4's are quite the same. Interesting topic, thanks @Sierra Mike Sierra

 

and thanks to @Old Viper Tester for posting the lovely pictures, cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, fubar57 said:

This might help....a bit. Its dated 1964. Title: "Exterior Finishes, Insignia and Applicable to Aircraft and Missiles" MarkingsLooking for a later date. https://www.f-106deltadart.com/manuals/T.O. 1-1-4 (1964).pdf

 

Thanks a lot! Do I have to expect the CIA raiding my home in covert operation to recover classified materials that might be in my possession?  

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36 minutes ago, Smudge said:

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235069811-green-flag-81-3-563tfs-f-4g/&tab=comments#comment-3619782

 

note WW 69-216 in a 'halfway house' of the two schemes

 

and some RF-4C's in a wrap-around version of 'SEA II'.  note also BA 72-147 in the 'halfway house' Scheme.

Thanks a lot, Smudge! Indeed, a lot of variations in the SEA scheme. I find it quite intersting that even within the same unit (F-4Gs of 563 TFS) the patterns vary. 

Cheers

Edited by Sierra Mike Sierra
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Re: RF-4C. In the Detail & Scale book, "Colors & Markings of the Recon Phantoms"; "Shortly after the hostilities commenced in Southeast Asia, the Air Force developed what became known as the Standard camouflage scheme. Technical Order 1-1-4 directed that two greens (FS 34079 and 34102) and a tan (FS 30219) be appled in a specific pattern to the upper surfaces and sides of the aircraft. A very light grey (FS 36622) was to be painted on the undersurfaces. As was the case with most combat aircraft in the Air Force's inventory, a pattern using these colors was designed specifically for the Phantom. Technical Order 1-1-4 did not differentiate between the different Phantom variants. The drawing used in the tech order was of an F-4C, however the same pattern was intended for use on the RF-4C as well. The only change required was to extend the camouflage scheme further forward on the RF-4C's elongated nose section."

Edited by fubar57
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Waiting for paint to dry on the latest F-4 so I thought I’d try to bring this conversation together.

The first key point is that the 2 pictures initially posted are not service a/c; the QF-4E is one of the drones painted to represent a former Phantom scheme, the other is the Collings F-4D (actual 65-0749) marked as 66-7463 c. 1972 and however good the paint scheme …….

 

The first USAF Phantoms (F-110A/ F4-C and RF-4Cs) were delivered in the USN scheme of Light Gull Gray (FS36440) over white.

The Vietnam War led to the need for camouflage for many a/c @fubar57 is correct in that Technical Order 1-1-4 directed that two greens (FS 34079 and 34102) and a tan (FS 30219) with the very light (sometimes creamy) gray (FS 36622) was used for the undersides.

 

The pattern was specified in the technical order but didn’t differentiate between models of the same a/c and given the painting, or repainting, was done at different facilities (the 2000th Phantom, F-4D 66-7533, came out of the factory in SEA camo) there was some natural variation.

 

For the Phantom this included the large area of tan on the port side which carried over behind the cockpit to include the intake ramp and fuselage below the cockpit on the starboard side.

 

The vast majority of Phantoms in the SEA era had this scheme but the variation we’re discussing did happen where the tan behind the cockpit was replaced by the dark green (34079). There are photos of F-4Cs, RF-4Cs and F-4Es with this variation – I suspect after repaint at depot level or even locally. I’d never heard the suggestion about SEA 1 and SEA 2 but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t used officially or otherwise.

 

Then things started changing with the move to overall camouflage; initially this became apparent in F-4Es and RF-4Cs  in the tan/green scheme and could also be found in some ANG Ds (not sure about Cs) . The move to the Lizard scheme (for the F-4 FS36081, FS34102 and FS079 {not the FS34092 used by the A-10}) came about in the early 80s – first I saw was Greenham in ’83. Then the Hill Gray schemes 1 and 2 appeared and life became gray.

 

Being the Phantom there were other variations of course, the ADC gray ones of the 57th FIS and the ANG a/c, ANG Ds in SEA ,lizard and Hill Gray and a few test ones which don’t seem to quite match any official gray. Also don’t forget the former Thunderbird Es which ended up with SEA overall but kept the white wings.

 

Hope that helps and as sure as God made little green apples somebody will find a photo to prove something else - probably @Old Viper Tester!

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I like Phantoms but they are not an aircraft that I'm phanatical about, however over on LSP's there are a number of detailed posts regarding Operation Bolo and early F-4C's in Vietnam. Jennings Hellig (Fundekals) has produced some decal sheets with all of the latest info on these birds. A thing I didn't know is that the early camo was only applied to the upper surfaces and the under surfaces were left in gloss white as these aircraft were originally delivered to the USAF in navy colours ie gull grey and white. Apparently the paint colours were a bit suspect and faded quickly and the patterns were not necessarily standard producing a weathering bonanza for the inclined modeller. HTH

TRF

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  • 7 months later...

I've not heard of SEA 1 and SEA 2 either... also agree it is risky using restored aircraft that is museum or air show birds as references for colour matching. Those planes aren't always painted to being historically correct. The people looking after them are probably more concerned with preserving the history behind the plane and the schemes painted are just representative of the period... not necessarily accurate.

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Hi All,

I have to agree with @Knight_Flyerthat I have not heard about SEA scheme I or II. The best I can say is have a series of photos of the subject by tail number your doing in the time period of the your trying to replicate. I can say from what I saw at Cannon AFB with the F-111D and E's and F's and FB's when they got here was it was dependent on the painter that painted that particular aircraft. They do follow the provisions within the T.O.1-1-4 and the previous pattern on the aircraft. That is until the time the paint completely changed to the overall Gunship Gray FS36118. So as one painter told me he uses "artistic license" when painting. Your photos show those that are gloss coated to keep the paint from fading is what I've been told. My only complaint with 463 is this is not it's correct tail number. 66-7463 F-4D is on display at the USAF Academy in Colorado Springs Colorado.

The following is falling in line with the other photos presented. My apologies for the quality of my early pictures.

PN 405th TFW 523rd TFS Udorn RTAFB 1972

F-4D-PN-66-8734

69-0350 RF-4C OZ Udorn RTAFB 1972

RF-4C-OZ-69-0350-Udorn72

F-4E GA 67-0269 George AFB California at Cannon AFB transient ramp 1982

F-4E-GA-67-269

F-4D Cannon AFB transient ramp mid 1980's

F-4D-MC-775

These last 2 are RF-4C aircraft from 2 different RF wings.

RF-4C-nose

And its tail

RF-4C-KE-67-441Tail

And the last RF-4C

RF-4-Center

From the rear left

RF-4-63-756

There are very minor differences within the patterns and that's why I try to find a few photos of the subject I want to model. This doesn't really clear anything up but is just a perspective of one modeller to another.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

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