Help needed for sky codes colors...

[Tokyo Raider]

Ok Brits...  this one is down your alley as they say...   I am starting a Hawker Typhoon car door kit, hasegawa 1/48....

 

I am doing a spring/June 1943 scheme, so the topside wing yellow stripes would be gone by then...  only the underwing black and white stripes (I asked about this before)...

 

I am using TECHMOD decals and i have 3 different sheets...  two sheets have sky codes that are brownish and match my Mr Color RAF sky paint perfectly...

 

The last sheet has codes that are brighter light green...  i cant match them with any RAF colors I have.  I need to paint spinner sky and tail band sky, so it needs to match the codes to look right.

 

My question...  did the RAF change the color of sky on a Typhoon at some point?  Which color is right?  Is this greenish bright code color called something else?  Thanks for your help as usual...

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Tokyo Raider

[Troy Smith]

32 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

I need to paint spinner sky and tail band sky, so it needs to match the codes to look right.

erm, depends. Sky and spinner were (depending) factory applied, the codes were unit applied..... A few years ago I posted this 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/70201-tempest-ej693-medium-sea-grey-squadron-codes/

"having been doing some Tempest research, I finally noticed this interesting detail, that Tempest EJ693, which is an unrestored fuselage, has it's squadron codes in medium sea grey, instead of the usual sky.  "

 

which got this response from @Chris Thomas

 

"Oh No they are not! I have had the chance to examine this relic at close quarters several times over the last 20 years and I can assure you that the code letters are Sky. "

 

  

On 14/05/2011 at 20:54, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

So I could, for instance, apply a sky tail band using whatever brand of model paint, and not worry if the decal sky codes dont match?

 

....... 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

 

My question...  did the RAF change the color of sky on a Typhoon at some point?  Which color is right?  Is this greenish bright code color called something else? 

 

Sky is a a very light yellowish green.  It did not change over the war.    Anyway, the codes don't have to match the factory applied Sky band and spinner. 

Lots of decals don't get the colour right.  

 

The US ANA 610 Sky, which was for Lend Lease US types is 'matched' by FS 34424, ANA 610 is slightly lighter and greyer than MAP Sky, but if you have access to an FS595 deck this may help?   (I have not checked my FS595 deck against my ANA 610 chip)

 

the underside of the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane here, give what to me look like a very good impression of the what I describe as a light yellowish green

from

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/76586-hawker-sea-hurricane/

 

if you look at the other pics in the link you can see how the colour varies depending on how it's lit

 

this maybe of use, a flickr album of period Typhoon colour photo courtesy of @Etiennedup

 

HTH

[Tokyo Raider]

Yes, that hurricane underside is sky type s...  like what i put under my mk1 spit...  

 

But this decal color matches mr color sky perfectly....  i am wondering if there is another color that was used for codes, like a mint green.  It could be that one sheet is a bad color...

 

The photo you posted looks like that stripe is under alot of dirt and dust.  The color by the E in the stripe look to match the codes, to my eye...  maybe thats a clean spot!

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Tokyo Raider said:

i am wondering if there is another color that was used for codes, like a mint green.

No.  The specified colour was Sky.   the type S just refers to the type of paint, the 'S' is for smooth.   Minor variations occurred, like the Tempest (probably not stirred enough?)  but the specified colour was Sky.  As the linked Hurricane shows it can look very different due to different light though. 

[Chuck1945]

I use Mr Color C-26 labeled “Duck Egg Green”. It looks to be a good match to the RAF Museum chip for Sky

[72modeler]

@Tokyo Raider,

 

Don't go by most decal sheets for sky codes; I have just about every 1/72  set of sky decal code sheets there are, and not very many  of them have the correct  shade of sky! Many kit decals have even  more variety. The problem I think many of us have experienced is matching a decent set of sky codes  to the spinner and fuselage  band; in rare instances the band decal is OK-  then you have to paint the spinner. I usually find codes that match a sky color chip, then mix enough paint that matches them to do the spinner and fuselage band. I remember helping a modeling buddy who was building a Spit XII using the Paragon conversion and an Eduard Mk VIII. He liked the codes that came in the Xtrakit Mk XII, but wanted to paint the prop and spinner; if you go that route, you don't have to mix an exact match, as the codes are a fair distance from either the spinner or fuselage band. Spinners and fuselage bands were almost always applied at the factory, but codes were most likely done at an M.U. or squadron- some were sprayed, I'm sure, using stencils, but many were brush painted, using a chalked or penciled  outline, and depending how well and often the paint was mixed as well as the batch used, there could be and probably were variations in the final appearance. As @Troy Smith and @Chris Thomas have stated, sky was a standard color and although some variance from the standard was most likely tolerated, the color was pretty much uniform throughout the war. 

Mike

[fastterry]

1 hour ago, Chuck1945 said:

I use Mr Color C-26 labeled “Duck Egg Green”. It looks to be a good match to the RAF Museum chip for Sky

I recently worked my way through building the CA Whirlwind and used Mr Color C26 for the underside and it is way too yellow for Sky. I ended up repainting it with some remaining Model Master Sky that I had which I think is much closer to Sky. Future models will be painted with Colourcoats Sky when I run out of MM.

TRF

[rossm]

3 hours ago, 72modeler said:

@Tokyo Raider,

 

Don't go by most decal sheets for sky codes; I have just about every 1/72  set of sky decal code sheets there are, and not very many  of them have the correct  shade of sky! Many kit decals have even  more variety. The problem I think many of us have experienced is matching a decent set of sky codes  to the spinner and fuselage  band; in rare instances the band decal is OK-  then you have to paint the spinner. I usually find codes that match a sky color chip, then mix enough paint that matches them to do the spinner and fuselage band. I remember helping a modeling buddy who was building a Spit XII using the Paragon conversion and an Eduard Mk VIII. He liked the codes that came in the Xtrakit Mk XII, but wanted to paint the prop and spinner; if you go that route, you don't have to mix an exact match, as the codes are a fair distance from either the spinner or fuselage band. Spinners and fuselage bands were almost always applied at the factory, but codes were most likely done at an M.U. or squadron- some were sprayed, I'm sure, using stencils, but many were brush painted, using a chalked or penciled  outline, and depending how well and often the paint was mixed as well as the batch used, there could be and probably were variations in the final appearance. As @Troy Smith and @Chris Thomas have stated, sky was a standard color and although some variance from the standard was most likely tolerated, the color was pretty much uniform throughout the war. 

Mike

 

+1 on the above.

 

I don't have my books to hand but I think when Sky was being introduced in the summer of 1940 there were variations documented by examination of relics by Paul Lucas?

 

Once supplies were established it would have been made to the Air Ministry specification and thus as near constant as you can get - IN THE ORIGINAL CONTAINER. As Mike says, how it was applied and what it went over could make a difference but I imagine there would have been a standard way to apply it so this would have been rare, except possibly at busy periods when marking changes were decreed?

 

If you have two different decal sheets with the same colour of Sky you're probably doing better than I am 😁

[Graham Boak]

Sky codes were later: in 1940 they were Medium Sea Grey.

 

It is worth adding that Sky was not introduced in the summer of 1940: it was adopted for Fighter Command then.  It was already in use on day bombers, specifically Blenheims, and had been for several months, as shown by winter photos in France.  Paul and Neil did some excellent work on variations seen in Fighter Command, supporting previous claims from writers such as MJ Bowyer, but extrapolating that to the entire fighter force does not seem to be justified.  Particularly when extended from aircraft in service at the time of introduction to those coming off the production line some time later.

[rossm]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Sky codes were later: in 1940 they were Medium Sea Grey.

 

It is worth adding that Sky was not introduced in the summer of 1940: it was adopted for Fighter Command then.  It was already in use on day bombers, specifically Blenheims, and had been for several months, as shown by winter photos in France.  Paul and Neil did some excellent work on variations seen in Fighter Command, supporting previous claims from writers such as MJ Bowyer, but extrapolating that to the entire fighter force does not seem to be justified.  Particularly when extended from aircraft in service at the time of introduction to those coming off the production line some time later.

 

As I think you guessed I was referring to the colour, not it's use for codes.

[Graham Boak]

I came in on the thread title; I thought it needed restating given the drift.

[Giorgio N]

It is entirely possible that in the application of the codes at unit level the resulting colour could vary depending on a number of factors and the Tempest picture above shows this well.

At the same time it's a fact that decal manufacturers do not always supply decals printed as close to the original colour as would be desireable and Sky is one of those colours that has been represented in many different ways, from pea greens to off white to light blue to everything in between, including fluo green....

Where does this leave us modellers ? Clearly anything that is blatantly wrong should IMHO be discarded. At that point if you have codes that look close to the paints you have and these look close enough for modelling purposes to the real colors, just use these. Unless of course pictures do not show a clear difference in colour between the bands and the codes, if so then it would be nice to use decals that show some difference.

In any case there may have been variations in the appearance of Sky paint when used for codes but the variations that can be found across the decal sheets included in kits and aftermarket sets are way wider.

[Tokyo Raider]

6 hours ago, fastterry said:

I recently worked my way through building the CA Whirlwind and used Mr Color C26 for the underside and it is way too yellow for Sky. I ended up repainting it with some remaining Model Master Sky that I had which I think is much closer to Sky. Future models will be painted with Colourcoats Sky when I run out of MM.

TRF

I agree and i also found the c26 to be too yellow.  I used it on my tamiya spitfire mk1, but the color cant be used for stripes and spinners on this Typhoon.  Underside of a model is one thing, but in your face on a spinner is too much.

 

I also have crates of testors modelmaster military paint stored away for the apocalypse...  i bought it up few years ago when they cancelled it.  I will check out the mm sky.

 

The mr color line of paint is what i use now and love it...  i also have RAF code templates to spray on the codes so I get the color I want.  So i can go that route if needed and use same paint to get codes and spinner ans stripes to match.

 

Thanks for the help!

[Seawinder]

12 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

I use Mr Color C-26 labeled “Duck Egg Green”. It looks to be a good match to the RAF Museum chip for Sky

I agree. I don't agree with fastterry's statement that C-26 is "way too yellow." I've used Model Master (enamel) Sky as my go-to for years and still have several bottles hoarded, but I did use C-26 on a couple of recent builds. Comparing them side-by-side, they're very similar. C-26 is a tiny bit yellower; MM Sky by contrast is a tiny bit bluer.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Seawinder

[72modeler]

10 hours ago, Seawinder said:

I've used Model Master (enamel) Sky as my go-to for years and still have several bottles hoarded,

I wish I had done the same when their enamels were still available, as many of their colors matched color chips very closely. That being said, I have a large bottle of sky that I mixed using Floquil railroad colors, using the formula that was supplied on a set of color chips for each nation's WW2 aircraft colors  that Floquil sold at hobby shops and by mail. Each color chip had a formula for mixing the color, using Floquil enamels; my sky mix matched the Floquil chip as well as the RAF color chip I had for sky. There was a chart for each nation; problem now is the Floquil line was discontinued many years ago! 

Mike

Edited January 22, 2021 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Tokyo Raider]

14 hours ago, 72modeler said:

I wish I had done the same when their enamels were still available, as many of their colors matched color chips very closely. That being said, I have a large bottle of sky that I mixed using Floquil railroad colors, using the formula that was supplied on a set of color chips for each nation's WW2 aircraft colors  that Floquil sold at hobby shops and by mail. Each color chip had a formula for mixing the color, using Floquil enamels; my sky mix matched the Floquil chip as well as the RAF color chip I had for sky. There was a chart for each nation; problem now is the Floquil line was discontinued many years ago! 

Mike

Hi Mike...  if you have any floquil 'grimey black' i would pay top dollar!  Its the best tire rubber color!  Nothing else seems as good.  My last bottle was used up.  Now I use mr color tire black, but its not flat enough...

 

I miss floquil!

Edited January 22, 2021 by Tokyo Raider

[72modeler]

9 hours ago, Tokyo Raider said:

if you have any floquil 'grimey black' i would pay top dollar! 

So sorry, my friend! I have one bottle of Floquil Grimy Black, Engine Black, and Weathered Black and they sit proudly in a dark cabinet in my climatically-controlled hobby room! Not only their paints,  but I miss the original Diosol, but IIRC you can still buy cans of Xylene at home improvement and paint stores- Floquil paint was zylene-based. I do have three bottles of Reefer white, which does not yellow and can pretty much be sprayed to cover in one coat. I also miss the Pactra Military Flat enamels, which could be used to mix almost every nation's aircraft colors, using a mixing chart that Pactra made available at hobby shops which was developed by IPMS Tidewater, IIRC. I still have mine! (Does that give you a clue as to how old I am?) 

Mike

 

Can you believe this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FLOQUIL-RAILROAD-COLORS-MODEL-PAINT-by-TESTORS-1oz-1-OUNCE-WEATHERED-BLACK-/224311724232

 

Their OD and flat aluminum were awesome! I still have a dozen or so bottles left!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PACTRA-MG60-AIRFRAME-GRAY-FS-16231-2-3-fl-oz-ENAMEL-MODEL-PROFESSIONAL-PAINT-/313076116495

[JPuente54]

@72modeler, I just looked at your links. My response is: "Gaaaaahh!!" 24 carat gold is cheaper. And, the prices will only go up.

[Chuck1945]

You might try Tamiya NATO black with a drop of German Gray for tires (for more ‘grime’ a drop brown can also be added)

[72modeler]

5 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

You might try Tamiya NATO black with a drop of German Gray for tires (for more ‘grime’ a drop brown can also be added)

NATO black is also very good for US WW2 prop blades!

Mike

[Seawinder]

I make my own Tire Black (which I also use for prop blades) by mixing a small amount of white with flat black. I used to use Model Master enamels, but now that they're disappearing, I'm using Mr. Color. It's plenty flat enough for tires, and in any case, I drybrush with some flat dark gray as well.

 

Although this is getting a bit off the OT, what I'm missing and for which I'm trying to find a replacement is Model Master acrylic Interior Black, the only MM acrylic I've ever used. It goes down very well with a hair brush, and I find it useful for things like cockpit details and IP coamings since I don't have to mask for it.

[Tokyo Raider]

On 1/22/2021 at 2:03 PM, 72modeler said:

So sorry, my friend! I have one bottle of Floquil Grimy Black, Engine Black, and Weathered Black and they sit proudly in a dark cabinet in my climatically-controlled hobby room! Not only their paints,  but I miss the original Diosol, but IIRC you can still buy cans of Xylene at home improvement and paint stores- Floquil paint was zylene-based. I do have three bottles of Reefer white, which does not yellow and can pretty much be sprayed to cover in one coat. I also miss the Pactra Military Flat enamels, which could be used to mix almost every nation's aircraft colors, using a mixing chart that Pactra made available at hobby shops which was developed by IPMS Tidewater, IIRC. I still have mine! (Does that give you a clue as to how old I am?) 

Mike

 

Can you believe this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FLOQUIL-RAILROAD-COLORS-MODEL-PAINT-by-TESTORS-1oz-1-OUNCE-WEATHERED-BLACK-/224311724232

 

Their OD and flat aluminum were awesome! I still have a dozen or so bottles left!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PACTRA-MG60-AIRFRAME-GRAY-FS-16231-2-3-fl-oz-ENAMEL-MODEL-PROFESSIONAL-PAINT-/313076116495

Yes...  i said top dollar but this is quite over my top dollar!  I have seen floquil going for 30 dollars a bottle!

 

I use mr color tire black now.  Its ok.  Just needs to be more FLAT.