Italian Co-Belligerent AF Spitfire Mk.Vc Colours and Markings

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

While I know this is just adding to the raft of Spitfire Mk.Vc related topics in the wake of Airfix's recent release, I'd be interested in knowing a few things about the colours and markings of the ICBAF-operated Spitfires Mk.Vc for a possible model!

 

We have some very knowledgeable folks here on BM, notably @Giorgio N, and there have been several helpful threads, such as:

co belligerent air force spitfire V

Spitfire in Italian Service

Italian Spitfire Vb colours, markings, decent photo's.

 

The above threads and this very useful web page on the 51st Stormo - Regia Aeronautica - Spitfire (after September 8, 1943) cover many if not all aspects of the ICBAF-operated Spitfires.

 

I think its correct to say that:

1. All (?) of the Spitfires supplied to the ICBAF were distinctly second-hand, or even third-hand.
2. Contrary to long-held belief, Spitfires in Italy were not camouflaged in the Desert Scheme: rather, they were finished in the then-current European Theatre Day Fighter Scheme, or perhaps locally interpreted versions thereof, applied at MU level.
3. RAF/USAAF markings were over-painted at a local level, ICBAF National Markings being applied over to the top of previous markings. Upper wing roundels, being smaller in diameter than RAF roundels, were applied over circular patches of camouflage colour.

 

I have a couple of questions/observations that I would like to throw open to the community if I may?

 

Firstly, in terms of the original aircraft, is it even remotely possible that some of the Spitfires Mk.Vc supplied to the ICBAF came from Malta? The reason I ask this is that, looking at the colour pictures on the EAF51 web page, the particular aircraft shown seems to have a darker, more homogenous colour scheme than the DFS might suggest, and is perhaps more reminiscent of the Malta schemes. I realise that these colour pictures are stills taken from contemporary cine film, and as such the colours are at the very least questionable, but I would be interested in knowing the thoughts of those more learned than I!

 

Secondly, in terms of models, in 1/72 scale Tauro produce ICBAF roundels. Can anyone suggest a source of suitable unit markings, such as the 51st Stormo's pouncing cat emblem? And would numerical markings such as unit and individual aircraft codes be in Regia Aeronautica font, as seems likely?

 

Many thanks for any thoughts and suggestions!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[Giorgio N]

It is not easy to clearly answer all questions, but I can give it a try... regarding your first 3 comments:

 

1) Yes, all Italian Spitfire were machines that had previously seen service with other units. The first batch came from aircraft previously serving with 249 and 352 Sqn. Later other machines arrived and these could in theory have come from any unit. In any case the following machines would have passed through an RAF MU

 

2) It is not possible to eliminate completely the possibility of aircraft finished in the desert scheme but it is very likely that the majority of these aircraft were indeed in the Day Fighter Scheme, a scheme that by then (mid 1944) was very common on RAF fighters in Italy. Pictures of aircraft from both 249 and 352 Sqn. aircraft before delivery to the Italians show all the characteristics of DFS and colour film shows the same scheme applied on Italian Spitfires.

 

3) Although some aircraft seem to have previously served with the USAAF, by the time they were given to the Italians they would have passed through an RAF MU and therefore repainted with RAF markings. When the USAAF left their Spitfires all aircraft passed through MUs and were then reallocated to the RAF or given to allies. This means that any cancellation would have been made on British markings.

 

On your main questions:

It is entirely possible that some aircraft may have come from Malta but I doubt that any by then would have retained the original "Malta scheme", The first batch was already in DFS while the following would have passed through an MU before delivery. I believe that the particularly dark look in some pictures is a result of the repainting process at MU level, that for some reason did not always lead to a "proper" Day Fighter Scheme. The same would explain the fact that in some aircraft the colours of the top surfaces are reversed, with the grey passing through the cockpit.

 

Decals are unfortunately a problem ! As you said, roundels are easy enough however the rest of the markings, even if relatively simple, are not. Unless you can find the MT Productions sheet (practically impossible) or the Tauro 72-552, that includes one such aircraft.

The 51° Stormo badge is maybe the easiest, as it is present in a number of sheets dedicated to other types... problem is of course that these other types may have had the badge in a different size, and the badge is actually smaller on the Spit than the same when used on the previous MC.202.

The numbers were unfortunately not in any of the styles previously used on Regia Aeronautica aircraft. Being in yellow, it's also not easy to find generic sheets meant for other users that may look close enough.

 

Lately Xtradecal has made a 1/72 sheet aimed at the new Airfix kit that includes an Italian aircraft. This however is in an unusual scheme that was most likely applied postwar. Could be that some of the the decals may be modified, the code 20-4 for example could be modified to 20-1.

I'm not even trying to give any definitive interpretation of that aircrat colour scheme ! 😂

What I should maybe do is decide to draw a set of decals for these aircraft and then have a small batch printed... not expecting to be something that would sell in the thousands but maybe a few interested modellers could be found

Edited January 20, 2021 by Giorgio N

[2996 Victor]

Hi Giorgio,

 

thank you very much for your swift and very detailed reply, it's hugely appreciated!

 

Thank you for confirming the camouflage scheme would have been the RAF DFS. I know its been mentioned elsewhere (in the threads I linked to, I think) that the colours used by the MUs may have been from Italian stocks rather than true RAF/MAP paints, which seems fairly reasonable. Would you say that this is likely to be the reason for the variation in colour? The colour stills do appear very dark, particularly so with the under surfaces, but this could be caused by or at least compounded by the colour film used, of course.

 

Its particularly interesting that the camouflage pattern was sometimes reversed, which is presumably all the more likely when the entire airframe is being repainted from Desert Scheme. Presumably there are other photographs extant aside from the images on the EAF51 web page.

 

Thanks also for the information regarding decals. I think I'm going to invest in the Tauro National Markings, but it looks like the remaining markings are going to be difficult to source! Incidentally, is the aircraft on the Xtradecal sheet the one with the diagonal bands of colour, the wing camouflaging looking like an arrow head, that appeared on the MT sheet in the larger scales?

 

I'm sure that, if you were to produce a decal set, you would have people clamouring for it! You can certainly put me down for a couple of sheets in 1/72!

 

Many thanks once again and kind regards,

 

Mark 

[Graham Boak]

5 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

I think) that the colours used by the MUs may have been from Italian stocks rather than true RAF/MAP paints, which seems fairly reasonable.

I don't think so.  Given the amount of stuff being shipped around for an MU (not to mention the rest of the invasion forces) tins of paint are pretty small beer.  They would also have to work on a fairly large number of aircraft.  They cannot have relied upon good fortune in capturing enemy stocks, of unpredictable quantity or quality.  Form other comments, much of the work in the early part of the campaign (certainly up to the formation of 241 Sq) was based on Malta, not to mention Gibraltar, Alexandria and (somewhere in) NW Africa anyway, which notably lacked any supply of Italian/German paints but by then was well supplied by the Allies.

[2996 Victor]

38 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I don't think so.  Given the amount of stuff being shipped around for an MU (not to mention the rest of the invasion forces) tins of paint are pretty small beer.  They would also have to work on a fairly large number of aircraft.  They cannot have relied upon good fortune in capturing enemy stocks, of unpredictable quantity or quality.  Form other comments, much of the work in the early part of the campaign (certainly up to the formation of 241 Sq) was based on Malta, not to mention Gibraltar, Alexandria and (somewhere in) NW Africa anyway, which notably lacked any supply of Italian/German paints but by then was well supplied by the Allies.

 

Hi Graham,

 

many thanks for your post: I take your points regarding availability of MAP paints and the logistical aspect of the MUs, and absolutely appreciate that the possibility of "finding" unused stocks of "enemy" paint during an advance certainly couldn't be relied upon. The use of such paints in the field is probably just another of those long-lived urban myths whose origin is lost in the mists of time, although perhaps the mixing of MAP paints may be a little more plausible if, for instance, there was a temporary lack of Ocean Grey, but supplies of Medium Sea Grey and Black were to hand.

 

Thanks again and kind regards,

 

Mark

[Giorgio N]

I fully with Graham, I can see no reason why an MU would have needed any non British paint, particularly at a point in the war (mid '44) when the logistic system of the allies had no problem in supplying any kind of material.

It is possible that the Italian ground crews resorted to Italian paints for the various touch-ups, and here they could have had access to a dark green (Verde Oliva Scuro 2), a light grey (Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1) and a dark grey (Grigio Azzurro Scuro 3). All these would have been stocks left on the airports as the companies that made these paints were all in the North. At the same time it is also possible that touch-ups were made using British made paints as these would have been easily available in the area.

 

[2996 Victor]

6 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

I fully with Graham, I can see no reason why an MU would have needed any non British paint, particularly at a point in the war (mid '44) when the logistic system of the allies had no problem in supplying any kind of material.

It is possible that the Italian ground crews resorted to Italian paints for the various touch-ups, and here they could have had access to a dark green (Verde Oliva Scuro 2), a light grey (Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1) and a dark grey (Grigio Azzurro Scuro 3). All these would have been stocks left on the airports as the companies that made these paints were all in the North. At the same time it is also possible that touch-ups were made using British made paints as these would have been easily available in the area.

 

 

Hi Giorgio,

 

many thanks for the extra information confirming the most likely scenario, that's absolutely brilliant and really appreciated!

 

With kind regards,

 

Mark

[Super Aereo]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I don't think so.  Given the amount of stuff being shipped around for an MU (not to mention the rest of the invasion forces) tins of paint are pretty small beer.  They would also have to work on a fairly large number of aircraft.  They cannot have relied upon good fortune in capturing enemy stocks, of unpredictable quantity or quality.  Form other comments, much of the work in the early part of the campaign (certainly up to the formation of 241 Sq) was based on Malta, not to mention Gibraltar, Alexandria and (somewhere in) NW Africa anyway, which notably lacked any supply of Italian/German paints but by then was well supplied by the Allies.

 

Hi Graham,

 

This is true, but we also know that, at least in 205 Group RAF, the logistic situation was far from ideal, so much so that there have been reports of crews flying in civilian clothing (see "RAF Liberator Over the Eastern Front" by Jim Auton MBE and "Out of the Italian Night" by Maurice G. Lihou), and I have no reason to think that the situation was better in the BAF than in the MAAF . That said, the RAF MU's in Italy should have been decently stocked with paint, even if I suspect that in several cases we see locally mixed versions of OG.

 

It might be worth mentioning that "Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force" is just a convenient moniker, the title of the Italian Air Force in the South remained Regia Aeronautica until 1946, when Italy became a republic. It is also worth remembering that by the time those Italian Spitfires came into service, the RAF camouflage standard for fighters in the area was supposed to be the DFS

[2996 Victor]

43 minutes ago, Super Aereo said:

the title of the Italian Air Force in the South remained Regia Aeronautica until 1946

 

Hi SA,

 

Many thanks for adding that - I never knew that, always assuming that the Regia Aeronautica died in 1943.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[tonyot]

I have noticed quite a few aircraft in Italy and N.Africa painted in what appears to be a Temperate Sea Scheme where the Dark Slate Grey section is much darker and greener and appears much like USAAF Olive Drab,.... I`ve seen it on Marauder`s, Baltimore`s, Beaufighter`s and Spitfire`s,..... so maybe this was a local adaption,..... it certainly would not fade as quickly?

The first of these Spits is Italian;

Beaufighter;

Hudson;

Baltimore;

 

So,... locally manufactured paints,....captured paints,..... USAAF paints,..... who knows? But different to the UK applied schemes.

Cheers

         Tony

 

 

[Giorgio N]

Tony, I would disagree on the Italian Spitfires: in the "famous" IWM video that was linked in one of the discussions the colours looked to me closer to DFS than to a Temperate Sea Scheme, The grey of the upper surfaces may have been darker than what we usually associate to Ocean Grey in some moments but was sure closer to this than to EDSG. Lower surfaces were also clearly in grey, compatible with Medium Sea Grey. The green could indeed sometime look more olive than Dark Green but afterall this colour is an olive green. I would still consider their finish to be due to a local repaint following less than ideal procedures rather than a deliberate use of a different colours

Unfortunately the video is not available online anymore, however some shots are still visible on the EAF51.org website: http://www.eaf51.org/

Go to History pages and from there to History pics page.

 

Regarding the other types you showed, to me both the Hudson and the Baltimore sure look in TSS and I'm not even sure that the Dark Slate Grey areas are particularly different from what this colour is supposed to look like. I should also say that these pictures and the one with the Beaufighter and Halifax also seem to better represent the colours, looking for example at the roundels, compared to the ones of the Italian Spitfires I've seen.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Giorgio N

[Graham Boak]

The Hudson is a transport, and thus correctly in TSS.  The Baltimore is a bit more of a maybe, but the type was used for maritime roles.  The grey is definitely dark enough for TSS but the green appears too olive for Dark Slate Grey.-

[tonyot]

10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The Hudson is a transport, and thus correctly in TSS.  The Baltimore is a bit more of a maybe, but the type was used for maritime roles.  The grey is definitely dark enough for TSS but the green appears too olive for Dark Slate Grey.-

Basically what I was trying to say Graham,.... I added the Hudson as n afterthought as the DSG is closer to `normal' but still slightly darker,.... and I know it is in the standard transport scheme. 

[Graham Boak]

Yes, but not everyone does.  People are still surprised how common this was.

[tonyot]

10 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Tony, I would disagree on the Italian Spitfires: in the "famous" IWM video that was linked in one of the discussions the colours looked to me closer to DFS than to a Temperate Sea Scheme, The grey of the upper surfaces may have been darker than what we usually associate to Ocean Grey in some moments but was sure closer to this than to EDSG. Lower surfaces were also clearly in grey, compatible with Medium Sea Grey. The green could indeed sometime look more olive than Dark Green but afterall this colour is an olive green. I would still consider their finish to be due to a local repaint following less than ideal procedures rather than a deliberate use of a different colours

Unfortunately the video is not available online anymore, however some shots are still visible on the EAF51.org website: http://www.eaf51.org/

Go to History pages and from there to History pics page.

 

Regarding the other types you showed, to me both the Hudson and the Baltimore sure look in TSS and I'm not even sure that the Dark Slate Grey areas are particularly different from what this colour is supposed to look like. I should also say that these pictures and the one with the Beaufighter and Halifax also seem to better represent the colours, looking for example at the roundels, compared to the ones of the Italian Spitfires I've seen.

 

 

I agree with some of what you say Claudio,,,,, I must point out that I said  "painted in what appears to be a Temperate Sea Scheme where the Dark Slate Grey section is much darker and greener ",.... not `the' TSS.  Many fighters employed on coastal or convoy protection duties around the Med including Spitfire`s appear to have worn a similar scheme, including the Spitfire`s of 451 Sqn RAAF,..... so yes,..it could be a poorly mixed Day Fighter Scheme,.... or a local variant or version of a TSS ? 

 

`Normal' TSS could vary widely,..... depending on weathering and even batches of paint,.... but I`ve not seen such a darker or greener variant of Drk Slate Grey on aircraft outside the Med,...here are some `standard' TSS schemes;

  

 

 

Not to worry,

  Tony

 

[Super Aereo]

11 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Tony, I would disagree on the Italian Spitfires: in the "famous" IWM video that was linked in one of the discussions the colours looked to me closer to DFS than to a Temperate Sea Scheme, The grey of the upper surfaces may have been darker than what we usually associate to Ocean Grey in some moments but was sure closer to this than to EDSG. Lower surfaces were also clearly in grey, compatible with Medium Sea Grey. The green could indeed sometime look more olive than Dark Green but afterall this colour is an olive green. I would still consider their finish to be due to a local repaint following less than ideal procedures rather than a deliberate use of a different colours

Unfortunately the video is not available online anymore, however some shots are still visible on the EAF51.org website: http://www.eaf51.org/

Go to History pages and from there to History pics page.

 

Regarding the other types you showed, to me both the Hudson and the Baltimore sure look in TSS and I'm not even sure that the Dark Slate Grey areas are particularly different from what this colour is supposed to look like. I should also say that these pictures and the one with the Beaufighter and Halifax also seem to better represent the colours, looking for example at the roundels, compared to the ones of the Italian Spitfires I've seen.

 

 

Hi Giorgio,

 

I agree on the TSS on Hudson and Baltimore.

 

The IWM video is still available online on the IWM channel:

 

IWM Canne March 1945

[Giorgio N]

I see what you mean Tony, the latest pictures you posted sure show a lighter "green" compared to the ones taken in the MTO.

They also show aircraft that were painted in these colours at the factory so it may again be a case of the difference in application of the paint rather than the use of a different paint. Or maybe there was and actual shortage of DSG that led the local MU to use a different paint. I know that trying to understand the correct colour from a colour picture of the era is not easy, for what it's worth the Baltimore and Hudson show a colour that to my eyes, while darker, still has the grey-green "character" that I associate with DSG.

The Spitfire with G as individual letter is a different story, but due to the way the colours are shifted in that picture I would not trust myself to make a guess on the colours used.

More interesting is the Beaufighter, as that picture is of much better quality, as shown by the colours on the Halifax in the foreground. The green on that Beaufighter is very far from what I'd expect DSG to be and if I were asked to tell what scheme the aircraft carried without knowing its intended use I'd have said Day Fighter Scheme with an unusually dark grey as the green looks more like Dark Green

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Super Aereo said:

The IWM video is still available online on the IWM channel:

 

IWM Canne March 1945

Wonderful footage, thank you for sharing the link!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[tonyot]

4 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

I see what you mean Tony, the latest pictures you posted sure show a lighter "green" compared to the ones taken in the MTO.

They also show aircraft that were painted in these colours at the factory so it may again be a case of the difference in application of the paint rather than the use of a different paint. Or maybe there was and actual shortage of DSG that led the local MU to use a different paint. I know that trying to understand the correct colour from a colour picture of the era is not easy, for what it's worth the Baltimore and Hudson show a colour that to my eyes, while darker, still has the grey-green "character" that I associate with DSG.

The Spitfire with G as individual letter is a different story, but due to the way the colours are shifted in that picture I would not trust myself to make a guess on the colours used.

More interesting is the Beaufighter, as that picture is of much better quality, as shown by the colours on the Halifax in the foreground. The green on that Beaufighter is very far from what I'd expect DSG to be and if I were asked to tell what scheme the aircraft carried without knowing its intended use I'd have said Day Fighter Scheme with an unusually dark grey as the green looks more like Dark Green

Agreed mate,..... I was just highlighting the use of a darker colour,..... as to what it was,..... who knows!!

When I built a model of a Beaufighter from this era in the Med,.. 1943 onwards ,.. I chose a dark and greenish mix of Dk. Slate Grey,.... but I have also used a dark grey, (sort of mid way between Ocean Grey and EDSG) with Dk. Green too.  My `feeling' is perhaps that the standard TSS colours were prone to fading too much in this theatre and that darker colours were used to counter for this? What they were,.... or if they were locally sourced,.... again,... I don`t know,..... I just wanted to highlight this.