Draw Decals ceases UK sales - New Regulations making sales impactical

[bentwaters81tfw]

The thing is, Greg doesn't tend to operate that way, he prints to order, so there are no batches of stock. I also believe he has a third party doing is printing.

[Tim R-T-C]

Ditto my friends in Belgium and Italy who make resin kits. Most of their products are made to order and some ranges might sell less than 20 units worldwide ever.

 

Its also worth remembering that many of these folk do this as essentially their side of the hobby, covering their costs but nothing more, so dealing with trade prices, negotiations and sales guarantees etc. will simply be more than they can find time to deal with.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Tim R-T-C

[TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED]

You are right it not going to work for everybody, and yes it going to require more effort to get the goods to market,

 

It is very sad the Big Boy are taking all the loot and they are giggling all the way to the bank, the hundreds of thousands of small business in the UK and Europe are the losers,

 

We have had almost 50 years of doing trade with Europe where small business have had no hassle and traded with each other on a level playing field.

 

But thats the vote and it is now over, so time to move on, but one posters is doing the right thing by contacting their MP as this is not just about modelers but thousands of small business's, and the penny is finally dropping.

Edited January 19, 2021 by TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED

[TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED]

I am serious, if you are a specialist trader in Europe I will pass details on to our retailers and smaller sub distributors,  I have been in logistics since I was 16 now, 61, 26 years in RAF Logistics and 18 years of running my own model and import business.

 

This is why I went from a Model fair seller to a leading Model importer in 3 to 4 years, got nothing to do with my model knowledge, which is rubbish, compared to Greg who works for me, but my knowledge of moving goods around the world. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED

[JeffreyK]

16 hours ago, ckw said:

Remains to be seen. Are sales for individuals in the UK going to be worthwhile for small operations to go through all the admin tape? Remains to be seen,

 

Of course come July, UK businesses will need to do the same thing - they will have to register for VAT in an EU country to sell items under 150 euros to EU customers. Looks like a lose-lose situation for customers and small businesses either side of the Channel (or Irish Sea). Not sure what special rules apply to Northern Ireland ... possibly some wriggle room there.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

 

There are two differences:

most importantly, the EU system, while very similar to the now operative UK system, is NOT COMPULSORY. You can still legally sell and send items to EU countries after July 1st, it's just that the customer then will guaranteed have to pay VAT plus a handling charge on every penny (cent) spent.

Secondly: if they wanted to register for VAT in the EU the foreign vendor will need an intermediary resident in a EU country to act as a legal tax representative. Either you know someone really trusted or you need to hire an accountant. Probably prohibitively expensive...

[ckw]

1 minute ago, JeffreyK said:

if they wanted to register for VAT in the EU the foreign vendor will need an intermediary resident in a EU country to act as a legal tax representative

Anything I've read has said 'may' or 'will probably' need a representative ... I don't think that has been finalised yet.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[Giorgio N]

16 hours ago, ckw said:

Remains to be seen. Are sales for individuals in the UK going to be worthwhile for small operations to go through all the admin tape? Remains to be seen,

 

Of course come July, UK businesses will need to do the same thing - they will have to register for VAT in an EU country to sell items under 150 euros to EU customers. Looks like a lose-lose situation for customers and small businesses either side of the Channel (or Irish Sea). Not sure what special rules apply to Northern Ireland ... possibly some wriggle room there.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

 

Not necessarily: the EU scheme allows sellers of "low value goods" to not register and still sell in the EU. In such a case VAT will have to be paid by the customer on receipt of the goods. That may mean two things; the delivery company will pay the VAT and then charge the customer accordingly (plus maybe a fee for the hassle) or the postman will deliver the goods to the final address and get the money directly from the customer.

It is very likely that in the end the customer will end up paying more regardless of the scheme but at least the option of non registering allows the kind of micro-businesses we are talking about to be able to keep selling in the Union withou having to deal with additional administrative burdens.

Of course not registering means the added risk that a customer may refuse to pay VAT and at that point the package would be returned, with all the potential troubles ensuing, in the end no solution is totally hassle-free.

 

Without such an option though the only ways to sell abroad may soon be to either pass through a distributor as Tiger Hobbies rightly suggests, that is a solution not all may be happy with, or trade through Ebay and/or Amazon, that would mean lower profit due to the fees incurred.

Best solution ?There's no solution that is best for every company, each will have to find the one that best suits their needs

[Rodders154]

Since this has happened I now only click uk only sellers on ebay because of the extra 20% vat added at pos

 

R

[ptarmigan]

17 hours ago, ckw said:

Of course come July, UK businesses will need to do the same thing - they will have to register for VAT in an EU country to sell items under 150 euros to EU customers.

 

In addition to what Giorgio has said, the incentive for UK sellers to do so is much higher than for the EU ones. Having to deal with all the hassle to sell to just one country (UK) is different than doing this to be able to sell to 27 member states of the EU. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by ptarmigan
typo

[ckw]

4 minutes ago, ptarmigan said:

the incentive for UK sellers to do so is much higher than for the EU ones

In most cases yes - though IF an EU 'representative' is required the costs could be higher as well. The key point is small businesses across the board are suffering -or will be. There doesn't seem to be an upside to any of this. Ironically, one solution will be to sell via Amazon (or the like) for which there is as yet no means for any government to tax fairly. 

 

Cheers 

 

Colin

[Timo]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021

 

This change in regulations does seem absurd - not an outcome we had expected from Brexit. However, under the new rules (link above )if the seller sells via an 'online marketplace' the online marketplace becomes responsible for collecting the VAT. So maybe the way forward is for our small scale suppliers to perhaps set up an 'Ebay shop' or similar in order to retain their UK customers. 

Just a thought.

Cheers TIM

[roym]

On 1/18/2021 at 2:16 PM, TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED said:

A lot of Mainland European Brands need to find UK distributors.

Do you realise how arrogant this sounds? (Shades of "They need us more than we need them..") 27 countries are still trading in the single market, plus 🇳🇴 🇸🇪 and 🇨🇭. They don't NEED to do anything. What they might WANT to do will be based on economic factors, as always. 

 

On 1/18/2021 at 1:27 PM, LanceB said:

Silly question, but what exactly could Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs do to an overseas company that shipped to private individuals and refused to collect British VAT?

Seize them.

You are a micro business. Your packages to the UK are seized. Your customers have paid and not got the item they paid for. You refund them and have to pay to get them returned or else write off the costs. How long do you think you'll stay in business?

On 1/18/2021 at 2:33 PM, JohnT said:

From what I read this was in the pipeline come what may as the EU are, I believe, doing the same thing

Not on EU sales. Only on imports. Even then it will be optional and require registration in only one of the 27 to access all of the 27. 

On 1/18/2021 at 4:25 PM, Tim R-T-C said:

Do people really think that there are tonnes of UK based aftermarket developers out there just desperate to start making thousands of decal sheets, resin pieces and photoetch accessories

Reading this thread, the answer would be, that yes, they do.

8 hours ago, TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED said:

Pro-rata the UK is possibly the largest model market in the world,

I love how some in this thread (and the other Vat related ones) totally seem to miss the point that EU to EU sales are continuing as before. 

 

Newsflash, there are still plenty of modellers in the EU, dare I say it even more than in the UK. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by roym

[ptarmigan]

23 hours ago, TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED said:

Pro-rata the UK is possibly the largest model market in the world

 Would love to see some numbers comparing the size of the UK and, e.g., Czech model market. 

[Greg B]

Closed. The thread has wandered far enough away from the announcement and handbags are out already....