Hermann Göring Regiment/Division - Sd.Kfz 251/17 Ausf.C vehicle camouflage

[Peter Browne]

Looking all over the interwebs for an authoritative reference on this subject, but can't find anything.  In particular, the source of the camouflage re green lines as per the Dragon artwork for Hermann Göring Regt. Sd.Kfz 251/17 Ausf.C in Tunisia:

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by pbrowne

[JackG]

Maybe this:

 

https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/48283/201811/3221311_aa996aab479b6e400bc7c9537af20345.pdf?Expires=1611275363&Signature=ePFyNS-eYSpRN3b9auiVN0v05gO~8ipu9SiLIAmYeDL--QPS84~POsq0E5s7-3So4KdbTwQ4SVqgImX-8PuXugYAiQZzT540IvRP2X26hWhrwTnTc5~gUMf8v7ci~OVXQV4QaL8Ig2SqppClsPAHR2c0iFHPFyfBEaiP96Y9rLxcJudwLZ38ytXdRgyogpFP5tdq8XQSWuN8fiL6eaZlR~GrANZ2fE9F1wI1vvuG1Ef8LiatuKmymYx~B65qKCSiNAu-jDpw5OCP0qGPxl1TcTHKi2diekMxKHHUWDc2nIrPF-UcK6I04l1LFkornxeOHuzAyvT6kN2efJdXgb27QA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Peter Browne]

Very helpful document, thanks Jack!  Begs more research...

 

Interesting that, at least according to that reference, the Sd.Kfz 251/17 Luftwaffe-Flakausführung was produce only in very limited numbers, less than a dozen according that reference, and only served in the Hermann Göring Regiment/Division, e.g with the light batteries of the embedded Flak Regiment as shown in the image below of a vehicle from the 10th Light Battery of the 2nd Battalion, Flak Regiment, Herman Göring Regiment (Vanguard 04 Fallschirmpanzerdivision. 'HERMANN GÖRING' , p.9). 

 

 

Presumably there were four of these per battery with a command version of the same type with foldable sides, aerial mast, but no flak: https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/sdkfz-251_hanomag.php

 

Another 'reference' is at http://www.rlm.at/cont/gal30_e.htm which states 10 vehicles in total produced.  Interestingly, the author's model is set in Sicily around September/October 1943. 

 

Whatever parts of the Regiment (as it was then) that had been sent to Tunisia piecemeal fashion, would have surrendered with the rest of Army Group Africa in May 1943. The reformed second Hermann Göring division in Europe was then sent to Sicily after the July 1943 invasion.

 

The question re Sd.Kfz 251/17 Ausf.C Luftwaffe-Flakausführung in Sicily would be questionable then given the very limited number of these vehicles produced (10 or so), where they would have been surrendered and destroyed after surrender, if units having them had been sent to Tunisia.  However, as noted in Vanguard 04 Fallschirmpanzerdivision. 'HERMANN GÖRING' (p.9), only the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the Flak Regiment of Hermann Göring Regt. were sent to Tunisia,  leaving the 1st and Fuhrer Battalions of the Flak Regt. behind in Italy and France (p.11).  However the composition of the sent and remaining Flak units is not clear.

 

Note also that the AFV Club kit of the same Sd.Kfz 251/17 Ausf.C Flak model does not include markings for Tunisia, but does have two versions for Sicily; overall Dark Yellow with wavy Olive Green cam scheme and overall Dark Yellow with blotchy  Olive Green cam scheme https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/afvclub/afv35118.html

 

So it appears that the vehicles were either in Tunisia or Sicily, but unlikely both places.

 

What would be the RAL colours for 'Dark Yellow' and 'Olive Green'?

 

The image below (from AFV Club?), seems to show the 'Dark Yellow' as RAL 8020.  I presume Olive Green would be RAL 6003?

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by pbrowne

[Kingsman]

It seems that these vehicles were factory finished in dunkelgrau before the switch to dunkelgelb.  As such, they would have been repainted for Tunisia in the late 1942 scheme of RAL 8020 Gelbbraun base colour with RAL7027 Sandgrau camouflage, which could be mistaken for a green in monochrome photos.  AFAIK no green was authorised for camouflage painting in DAK or Panzerarnee Afrika, assuming that HG Div followed those rules and didn't borrow some Luftwaffe colour.  But they were deployed with Heer forces, not in defence of Luftwaffe bases.

 

As for Sicily or Italy, it seems highly unlikely that any vehicles would have been evacuated from Tunisia, when attempts were still being made to re-supply and reinforce Tunisia until the very end of that campaign and Allied forces had virtually completely cut the air and sea supply routes.  Vehicles left behind in France would certainly have remained in Dunkelgrau RAL7021.  There was no requirement to repaint in Dunkelgelb RAL7028 once this became the factory colour.  But that is entirely the wrong colour for southern Italy and Sicily so repainting seems likely.  But 7028 or 8020?  7028 was a new colour in 1943 and I imagine supplies were prioritised for factories. 

 

It is said that later vehicles destined for N Africa were prepared in Italy before shipping, which would imply that supplies of 8020 and 7027 were available there.  So it would certainly appear possible that any remaining HG Div vehicles sent down to Italy could have ended up in the Tunisia scheme of 7027 over 8020, again noting the possibility of 7027 being mistaken for a green. British forces retained their Tunisia scheme through Sicily and most of the way up through Italy.  Is it equally possible that they might have been repainted in France before departure, in which case the 3-colour scheme colours would be more likely.  But would time have been allowed for that or would the priority have been to move forces South regardless of colour?

 

I guess I'm plumping for 7027 Sandgrau over 8020 Gelbbraun for both Tunisia and Sicily.

[Peter Browne]

Coming from the Das Abteilung, that sounds pretty authoritative! 🙂  Thank you, particularly the details and thoughts on 7027 vs 7028.  I may well go with a factory applied (??) 7027 and 8020, particularly in respect to the following.

 

Looking at a larger image of one of the photographs in Kevin Townsend's PDF, the applied camouflage seems to be done in the field, possibly using camouflage pastes and applied with a rag.  The applied camouflage is also considerably darker than the base colour, so could be a dark brown or green. Therefore not necessarily representative of other vehicles in HG Div or at all times either in Tunisia or Sicily or anywhere else.   See https://panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage

 

The reference at http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts.htm states:

 

"In February 1943, a general order was issued to change the base coat from Dunklegrau to Dunklegelb nach Muster (later numbered RAL 7028) - a tan color.  Field units were issued tins of Rotbraun RAL 8017 (red brown) and Olivgruen RAL 6003 (dark olive green) paste concentrate to create camouflage patterns suitable for local conditions."

 

Also a reference at https://panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage  (see particulary under heading Late-war, 1943-1945)

 

Looks like that is what is happening here...so it could still be Tunisia or Sicily...  Apparently other photos from the roll of film, according to Kevin Townsend's source indicate taken in Tunisia, though the country can be similar in both places.

 

 

 

Looking at the flat country, the camouflage seems to stick out like a tree on the Nullarbor Plain...

 

Another thread on use of camouflage paste in the field:

 

 

Seems to beg the age old question, at what point do artists sacrifice realism for the sake of art?

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by pbrowne

[Kingsman]

I'm not sure that a monochrome photo will definitively differentiate the tonal difference of 7027 over 8020 from 6003 over 8027.  The tone of 6003 could vary considerably according to the density of thinning and the thinning medium.

 

That scheme does look more daubed on than painted on, perhaps in a hurry.  I've even seen a picture of bundles of straw wrapped with rags being used as a "brush".  Not sure it would be effective at any distance: needs bolder patterns.

 

Camouflaging AA vehicles is always problematic.  They need a clear all-round field of low-elevation fire so need to be in relatively open positions.  If he's the only bush in the vicinity he will stick out.  As the sides are not lowered it perhaps suggests a temporary stop.  But of course the crew are even more exposed with them down.  Would make little difference against 0.5" and none against 20mm.  Even 0.3"/0.303" fired from an aircraft at 300mph+ would penetrate.  Post-war analysis showed that shadow was one of the greatest give-aways for pilots.  Plenty of shadow in Sicily.......

Edited January 20, 2021 by Das Abteilung
addition

[Peter Browne]

Das Abteilung, you may be correct regarding tonaI differences in monochrome photos being problematic.  I know that lens color filters for a start will make some colours darker or lighter depending on the filter.   There are probably other reasons for variations as well.

 

I suspect the photo is posed, if they were prepared for enemy aircraft, presumably the hull sides would be folded down.  Folding down the hull sides with shrubbery all over it to fall off doesn't make much sense.

 

 

Being an ex Field Arty officer in Australia, I definitely agree regarding shadows being a give away for pilots and also aerial photography.

 

I think one of the potential problems I'm alluding to in my last post, is that if the camouflage pattern depicted for the Dragon and AFV Club kits is based on the camouflage photograph and the other one in Kevin Townsend's PDF, then that presents a bit of a problem.  Mainly, that the kit depictions in the artwork suggests that there was some common pattern to the camouflage overlay that would seem to be properly applied, e.g. in the factory or depot using an airbrush.  The camouflage photograph and the other one in the PDF, suggest that is not the case.  I have yet to see any recognised pattern for this camouflage, or any other photograph of that design on any vehicles.  If anyone has a reference or some other images then I would love to see it.

 

Some may see this as nit picking.  But I prefer to have some basis for historical accuracy that relies on some evidence, not just what a kit manufacturer decides to put in their artwork.  I'm sure most of us would agree?

 

Peter

Edited January 21, 2021 by pbrowne

[Kingsman]

That photo above is definitely a dunkelgrau vehicle, and it looks like range practice.  Firing point marker, no personal weapons.  But if you look at the ERM plate it appears to be the very same vehicle that is posing as a bush further up.  So definitely repainted!  And that perhaps answers the question posed earlier as to whether any of these were left with the 2 batteries in France when 2 batteries went to Tunisia.  It would seem so.

 

The other comments above suggest that dunkelgelb is more likely as the base colour than gelbbraun, and if they came down from France perhaps this would be more likely.  That would make the pattern olivgrun. 

 

As far as patterns go, there was no standardisation at all and no factory application at this time: that came later.  Units and individual crews could decide on their own patterns and colours according to where they were when they received the vehicles and paint.  Which was not always at the same time......  And they weren't always able to repaint as they moved around.  There were spray guns but they don't seem to have been widespread outside workshops.  Hand application was most common, sometimes with improvised means.  You might get paint issued but you didn''t necessarily get brushes.  Quite possibly every one of these vehicles was different.

 

Artwork worries me unless I can find photos to back up the pattern.  Good books or sites will often give you both.   Likewise the colours.  If all 3 are used it's fairly straightforward, but if there's only 2 then telling olivgrun from rotbraun in monochrome can be difficult, especially as the colour density of each could vary.

[Peter Browne]

Wow, nice spot on the ERM plates! 

 

Now I'm really perplexed.  The image below shows a Sd.Kfz 251/17 Ausf.C Flak purportedly in Holland in 1944.  I thought these were only issued to HG Div?  I don't believe HG Div were in Holland in 1944, they were a new Corps sized unit in Poland from 1944 to surrender.  Unless it is meant to be 1940 during the invasion of the Netherlands in which the HG Regt took part... 

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/halftracks/sd_kfz-251/sdkfz-251-17-flak-holland-44/

 

But I digress, do you have an example of the camouflage that you think it might be in Sicily?

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by pbrowne

[Kingsman]

Digging a bit further, this vehicle isn't actually a 251/17 - although it is most commonly called this.  The 251/17 was a later version on the Ausf D hull with the 2cm Schwabelafette mount firing over the normal hull sides.  Officially this vehicle we're looking at was part of the Sd.Kfz 11 family and was designated 2cm Flak 38 auf Selbstfahrlafette Zgkw.3t (Sd.Kfz.11). This might account for any confusion about later-war locations: it is believed that the version we're looking at here were all destroyed by about the end of 1943.

 

If that photo is indeed Holland - and I can't see anything to definitely identify where it is and the text on the background buildings can't be read - then 1940 seems more likely than 1944.

 

Now, these vehicles used standard 251 armour although not strictly 251's.   But they have the Ausf C pattern front armour with the one-piece front plate.  And this wasn't introduced until late 1941.  Early C's were riveted and these are welded, which makes them 1942 build.  So that photo can't possibly be part of the Holland/Belgium/France campaign either.  I suggest it is mis-captioned and is most likely somewhere in their French area of occupation.  It's a pity there's no front ERM plate to see if it's the same vehicle again.

 

Any 251/17 in Holland in 1944 would be the "proper" one.  These.

 

Just to further confuse the issue there was a 2nd batch of 2cm Flak 38 auf Selbstfahrlafette Zgkw.3t (Sd.Kfz.11/1) built in 1944 using more heavily modified 251 front ends.  These are also commonly mis-identifed as Sd.Kfz 251/17s.  These, which might also have been seen in Holland in 44.

 

What does all this rambling mean?  It means that the type of vehicle we're discussing here as built for and used by HG Div (which we now know is not a 251/17) would not have been seen in NW Europe later in the war nor in the initial conquest of France and the Low Countries.

 

Circling back to disruptive patterning, with no standardisation your guess is as good as mine or anyone else's.  With so few of them photos are very hard to find.  The Sicily bush photo you posted is as good as any unless evidence for the squiggly pattern artwork can be found.

 

Not sure I've helped much here..............

[Robert Stuart]

Don't think that this is 1940 - check the nose plate

[Peter Browne]

This is becoming the halftrack from Hell...

 

Thanks Das Abteilung for your research!!  I would be interested to know what reference you are using, but I'm not doubting your information at all.

 

Here is a Sd.Kfz 11/1 with 2cm Flak at the Australian Armour and Artillery Museum, Cairns, Australia:

 

 

Here is the command version of the "251/17 Ausf.C".  Interestingly, it shows the exact same location as the "251/17 Ausf.C" purportedly in Holland above.  Possibly the same vehicle further down the street, which looks followed by another "251/17 Ausf.C" of the battery. Still no specifics though to identify place, time or unit. Though apparently after mid 1942 from when the Ausf.C was manufactured.  So it could be Germany or multiple places after the HG Regt was reformed to a division along panzer div lines.

 

 

The following site provides some information on the evolution of this vehicle type from "251/17 Ausf.C" (only 10 units and 2 command vehicles produced) to the Ausf. D as shown in Das Abteilung's post above and below:

 

https://www.pietvanhees.nl/251/04-251-17.htm

 

 

More pics of the restored/reproduced Ausf.D version at https://www.milweb.net/webvert/a3942/96124

Edited January 22, 2021 by pbrowne

[Peter Browne]

22 hours ago, Robert Stuart said:

Don't think that this is 1940 - check the nose plate
 

 

I think it could be after October 1942 when the HG Regt. was made into a Panzer Div. 

 

Image from Vanguard 04 Fallschirmpanzerdivision. 'HERMANN GÖRING' (p.7)

 

 

According to The 'Herman Göring' Division Men-at Arms (385), after the new division had been worked up in various places with new elements and equipment, the bulk of the new Div located to Mont-de-Marsan in southern France where it continued training, gradually being deployed to Italy, with some units staying in France.  From early February-March units were deployed piecemeal to Tunisia.  In the meantime there were HG units scattered in France, Germany and Holland that started regrouping in Naples expecting a landing in Sicily.  So that photo, may be after the reforming to a Panzer Div in October with expanded flak elements and only of the type used by HG Div (note Panzer corp uniform in the vehicle). But it could be anywhere, though obviously not under any duress, in transit and no camouflage.

Edited January 22, 2021 by pbrowne

[JackG]

Could be just a rabbit hole, but here and there (on the missinlynx forums) can find mention that the Luftwaffe did have their own supply of desert tan paint, often described as golden yellow.  At the same time, it seemed to most often be in short supply.   So maybe not enough to repaint vehicles, but only helmets and personal gear?

 

regards,

Jack

[Kingsman]

I presume that Jack is thinking of the tropen aircraft colour RLM79 Sandgelb, which was indeed a much deeper and more golden colour, like this Me109G-2/Trop.  FYI the earlier 109Es in N Africa pre-dated the introduction of RLM79 and were painted with Italian Giallo Mimetico 3 base colour.

 

If we're thinking in that direction then the green could equally be the RLM80 version of Olivgrun.  If paint was to be obtained from Luftwaffe sources then one imagines they would order both together.

 

However, apart from some specific fallschirmtruppen uniforms and light weapons, HG Div was equipped through the Heer supply chain and operated under OKH rather than OKL or Goring's personal command and entirely separately from Luftwaffe FlaK units and air bases.  So I think that Luftwaffe paint is unlikely, although not impossible.

 

As for research, I did say digging around.  Feels more like prodding for mines..........  These are quite controversial vehicles because of their frequent identity confusion, but there is plenty of often-contradictory and confused material out there to pick over.  Some older ideas like the 1970's Chaimberlain/Doyle/Jentz bible have been overtaken by more recent discoveries.  That book sentenced these 3 distinctly different vehicles and some field conversions all as 251/17s while also claiming that there were 3 different Ausf C versions and some on Ausf A and B (there were not) as well as the Ausf D type and is perhaps the root cause of the belief that they are all /17s.  Herr Jentz's pronouncements on German armour are well-regarded, but many have been revised.  But it missed one essential point.  The 251/17 designation was not issued until late 1943.  As the designations were issued roughly sequentially, had your vehicle been designated in its chronological order then it would almost certainly have had a lower number: it was produced at about the same time as what we now know as the 251/9 Stummel. 

 

The only definitive Sicily-period photo we have is the "bush" one with its random pattern of short lines.  Naples was the departure point for convoys to Tunis or Bizerte so we might assume that any pre-shipping preparation of vehicles for Panzerarmee Afrika was done there.  If the French group of HG were redeployed to Naples then it is still possible that they might have been repainted there in Tunisia colours.  But there is no proof of that: they could still have been repainted in France, but if the sub-units were scattered that is perhaps less likely.  We can't ask the audience or phone a friend so I suppose it's 50:50 Tunsia or Europe colours.

[JackG]

Actually, when mention is made of Luftwaffe ground equipment painted in a tan colour, there never seems to be an associated  RAL or RLM number.  Sure would like to know the source of one particular statement by Brian J Tears that ìn early 1941 `... only African camo was in the luftwaffe at this time ...``

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=75515#p75515

 

The initial tropical sand paint used on Luftwaffe aircraft that supposedly was of Italian origin, was apparently a myth perpetuated by the modelling community.   Noted researcher Merrick had proposed the idea with no proof,  but some zealous people took it to heart and began painting their tropical Emils with Italian paints.   As seen in the Britmodeller link, current research indicates there was a lighter version of sand paint issued, and was replaced with the standard Sandgelb RLM 79.

 

Anyhow, given the time frame, I`d keep it simple and just use the second set of tropen vehicle paints.

 

regards,

Jack

Edited January 23, 2021 by JackG

[Peter Browne]

15 hours ago, JackG said:

...The initial tropical sand paint used on Luftwaffe aircraft that supposedly was of Italian origin, was apparently a myth perpetuated by the modelling community... 

 

Oi, I smell a thread hijack afoot...🤨 

 

Not to mind, one of the themes of this thread is actually about how myths and fantasies can be perpetuated, in this case by kit manufacturers.  The case is the camouflage pattern on the 'Tunisian' Sd.Kfz 251/17 Ausf.C (or whatever it is...), when the only evidence of this are two posed photographs of apparently the same vehicle (judging by the crew) obviously dabbed quickly in the field with something which may be paint (...), aka 'The Bush'.  Hardly a known camouflage pattern.

 

Note:  I think the two photographs were taken in different places and the camouflage paint appears different (see gun shield).

 

I think we're on track now...😀

 

Peter

Edited January 23, 2021 by pbrowne

[Peter Browne]

May be a longshot and not wanting to perpetuate any myths, but that second photo looks like it might be in the hills overlooking the city port of Tunis or even Bizerte and the lakes inland from there.  It MAY be Sebkhet Soliman which is a large marsh near the seaside town of Solimon just to the east of the port of Tunis, or it could be the port itself.  But there are many inland lakes near Tunis...

 

 

 

 

 

Certainly looks like the country in that area looking at images of the battle of Longstop Hill inland from the port and inland lakes of Bizerte for example...

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by pbrowne

[JackG]

Should not be any reason for hijack,  the 'myth' issue was already addressed in the linked thread from almost four years ago.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Back to the subject at hand, kit manufactures have their own reason for doing what they do.   For sure the artwork is based somewhat on photos, but details can get embellished to make it more appealing to the buyer.

 

The Tunisian landscape, as witnessed in these latest photos, is much more varied and lush compared to the battlefields that raged in Libya and Egypt.   Both sides made adjustments to their vehicle schemes to compensate for this.  The HG 251 is such an example I believe, since I've never come across such a scheme pattern as being official factory issued.  Anything more would be speculation on my part.

 

regards,

Jack

[Kingsman]

Luftwaffe were an early adopter of colour standardisation and codification with the RLM system before WW2 so un-numbered Luftwaffe colours seem unlikely.  RLM 79 was authorised for Tropen aircraft In November 1941 by order L.Dv. 521/1.  What was authorised and what was done in response to operational circumstances are not always the same. But let's not turn this into a discussion of Luftwaffe colour vagaries.  There is an excellent analysis of Luftwaffe colours and some comparative colour swatches here https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/luftwaffe/colors.html.  I still believe that Luftwaffe colour use on ground vehicles is very unlikely except perhaps, and I only say perhaps, some belonging directly to flying or airfield units.

 

The photo in the post above actually looks more like a dunkelgrau vehicle overpainted with patches of a paler colour which could be dunkelgelb, but the colours on the front plate/headlight and fender look quite different.  It has been posted further up earlier in this thread, with the other "bush" photo.  Looking back, those 2 photos are different vehicles.  The gun shield painting is completely different on each, something I hadn't noticed.  Also, the first vehicle clearly has lighter-painted track wheels whereas the second seems to have darker-painted track wheels.  Now that might indicate a dunkelgrau vehicle from France hurriedly overpainted locally in Italy or Sicily.  But why do different parts appear to be in different colours and painted in different ways?

 

They are also in different places: note that one is on short grassland and the other in taller scrub, although the cuttings draped on the vehicle appear to be the same type of plant.  Potentially we might have a Tunisia photo and a Sicily/Italy photo.

 

I must point out again that there were no "factory schemes" in our time period.  If those appeared at all (also controversial) we're talking 1945.  Only the base colour of plain dunkelgrau and later dunkelgelb was specified for factory finish, with gelbbraun for vehicles built as Tropen spec in the dunkelgrau period.

 

We don't seen to be getting any closer to an answer..............

[Peter Browne]

Yes, it's getting a bit speculative...

 

In the end, I will probably paint the vehicle with a base of RAL 8020 without any camouflage overlay, which would be representative for a vehicle, perhaps in Naples going to either Tunisia or Sicily, where camouflage paint may have been applied based on local conditions.

 

Looking at the two bush photos, I do think this is the same vehicle, based on a particular crew member. I agree the locations and camouflage is different, but I think it may be Tunisia, which may explain why we don't see any other photos of these vehicles.  The camouflage I think has been reapplied, obviously heavier in the second image, possibly to account for different vegetation.

 

The crew member in question is this one, who appears to have the same features and facial shape and expression...

 

 

Even the gunner in the first image looks similar (nose, eyes etc) to the one in the second photo...

 

 

They may have been part of an instructive photo shoot for vehicle camouflage for commanders in locale...

Edited January 24, 2021 by pbrowne

[Kingsman]

But just a thought.  We haven't considered the possibility of Italian paint for Sicily.  German units are flooding into Italy, most probably still with dunkelgrau vehicles.  All heading South at Vmax.  1943 was the changeover year to dunkelgelb so it's bound to be in short supply at unit level.  You end up in Southern Italy or across the Straits in Sicily with dark grey vehicle in a very much lighter landscape.  And being FlaK, you're an especial bullet magnet.  What do you do?  The rules say indent in triplicate using form xyz123 and wait........   German units seem to have had no problem nicking useful stuff from the Italians.

 

Just a thought........  (he says, taking immediate cover..........)

 

You may have heard this simple German aircraft recognition mantra before from Normandy, but it probably applied in Italy too.  If you see a dark plane it's British.  If you see a shiny plane it's American.  If you see no plane it's the Luftwaffe.

[Peter Browne]

I thought Italians headed the nicking department?? 

 

That's certainly what happened to me five years ago at Naples train station.  Sitting in a 1st class train carriage waiting to go back to Rome after visiting Pompeii.  My elderly mother is sitting opposite me, just her and me in our A class seats.  Man comes in with white cane and asks me the time. At the same time, mother sees another man wearing orange bubble jacket running his hand along the luggage shelf above us with coffee coloured glass/perspex. She thinks he's looking for loose change (such is Naples...).  I look up after man with white cane is gone, and my camera backpack (non-descript black LowePro backpack) with $12,000 worth of top Nikon gear including prime lenses, passports and credit card is gone.  I get off the train still at the station and look for the man wearing a bright orange bubble coat of all things (which he probably nicked) who is nowhere to be seen in the throngs of people.  He had probably taken the coat off, passed the bag to an accomplice, who then passed to another and so on. Napoli Football.  It's a sport.  I tell the Carabinieri on the station and they all laugh at me!  I complete a form in the Carabinieri office who all share the 'joke' muttering "Inglese..." as though that was all that needed saying, and erupt in laughter.  Eh.  While completing the form with Carabinieri looking over my shoulder saying "Cosa dice? Scrivi chiaramente per favore, Inglese stupido..."  the train departs the station with my 86 year old mother.  Catch another train and we meet up at a station orchestrated by the train people.  We go to Australian Embassy in Rome, report lost gear, credit card and passport and get emergencies passports for both of us. They don't laugh and take stolen Australian passports seriously.  I was mindful enough to have separate insurance on the camera gear, so I got a payout within a few days and replaced everything at a Nikon shop in Vienna, who were very happy about it. We went back to Naples two years ago, to the train station, to catch the train back to Rome, having climbed Vesuvias with 50+ celcius heat during the Europen heatwave, and listened to an incredulous English family telling me how they were all standing in the station having a conversation not long before, looked around and all of their large suitcases had disappeared. Eh.

 

I'm sure the Italians pinched more from the Germans, did you see what the Cosa Nostra did to that Tiger 1 in Sicily?  Blew the turret off in the street, then nicked everything they could from it, including the muzzle break off the barrel.

 

Note two small boys on the right innocently walking away attempting to conceal detonator.  Mamma on the left is shouting "Salvatore, Angelo eh cosa hai fatto, dovresti essere a scuola, non fare pratica per essere come tuo zio..."  Next photo shows Jeep on blocks sans wheels...

 

 

Not sure I want to go down another rabbit hole with the Italian paint, but interesting thought.

 

When you say dunkelgelb, is that RAL 7028, 7027?  What color is the above tank that the kids destroyed?  Looks like 7027.

 

If you see a dark plane it's British.  If you see a shiny plane it's American.  If you see no plane, go look in the Italian blackmarket...

Edited January 25, 2021 by pbrowne

[Kingsman]

7027.  7028 was the alleged late-war variation IIRC.  I say alleged because the supposed switch in 1945 to a different dunkelgelb with resedagrun and schokobraun is another can full of worms, wriggly, Mk1, arguments for the use of.  I'm not signing a chit for that.............

 

But that might be a Tropen tiger in which case it will probably be 8020 as used by factories until the full dunkelgelb switch.  Do I see the rear air filters?  There's a green shift to the colours from the period film stock so it's hard to gauge accurately, and it's burned.  I can never remember whether that's panchromatic or orthochromatic but it's a common problem with period colour images and unfortunately influences some re-colourists.

 

I'm not encouraged to visit Italy!  Although my eldest son holidayed there in the North East a couple of years back with no trouble.  Ironically he twice had attempted luggage thefts by somewhat less practised thieves at the main station in Bristol where we used to live.  Suggestions that they would find themselves eating platform in the next few seconds sent them scurrying empty-handed.  If you speak Italian did you let the smug Carabiniere know with some cutting comeback that you knew he was calling you stupid?

[Peter Browne]

It was a collective sentiment on their part. At the time I was too stressed out.  But on reflection now, it wouldn't have been very wise.  Also, I think they may have a point, with this sort of thing happening routinely with 'Stupidi inglesi...'

Edited January 25, 2021 by pbrowne