Seafire LF MkIII, `S 115`, 894 NAS, HMS Indefatigable, serial number ?

[russ c]

Hi, I`m going to try and build the above Seafire, but can`t find what the serial number was. found a photo on `armoured carriers` website but can`t make it out. An afternoon on Google and I`m still non the wiser. Anyone know for certain what it was?

Also prop` spinner colour, black or dark slate grey as S146?

Appreciate any help

TIA Russ

 

[112 Squadron]

At airhistory.org.uk there is a quite good list of all the Seafires and Spitfires that also includes their service history. According to the list, some 55 Seafire Mk III have served with 894 Squadron at one time or another.  I extracted all those that served with 894 Squadron. The downside is that only in a few instances Squadron codes are included as well.

 

I just sent you the list as a PM. Maybe the dates which show when they were written off or transferred will help to narrow down your search.

 

Best Regards,

 

112 Squadron

Edited January 17, 2021 by 112 Squadron

[Seahawk]

Except that I suspect that the aircraft may have belonged to 887 rather than 894 Sq.  Both were in Indefatigable.  887's codes were 111/S and up and 894's in the range 130-145/S.

 

Is this the photo of BPF Seafire 115/S pancaking on a carrier deck?  If so, NB in passing it still has the East Indies Fleet roundel above the starboard wing.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Seahawk

[russ c]

14 hours ago, 112 Squadron said:

At airhistory.org.uk there is a quite good list of all the Seafires and Spitfires that also includes their service history. According to the list, some 55 Seafire Mk III have served with 894 Squadron at one time or another.  I extracted all those that served with 894 Squadron. The downside is that only in a few instances Squadron codes are included as well.

 

I just sent you the list as a PM. Maybe the dates which show when they were written off or transferred will help to narrow down your search.

 

Best Regards,

 

112 Squadron

Thanks Martin, much appreciated.

[russ c]

14 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Except that I suspect that the aircraft may have belonged to 887 rather than 894 Sq.  Both were in Indefatigable.  887's codes were 111/S and up and 894's in the range 130-145/S.

 

Is this the photo of BPF Seafire 115/S pancaking on a carrier deck?  If so, NB in passing it still has the East Indies Fleet roundel above the starboard wing.

Thanks Seahawk,

 Yeah that`s the photo and the reason I`m interested in wanting to do it. Wondering if it`s a replacement wing or they just didn`t get around to painting it out? In the latter case maybe there were some others with the old roundel on the stbd wing.

Yeah it may have been 887 Sq, I just presumed that 887 had Sky spinners and 894 had Black or Slate Grey ones. Do you know if the spinner colour had any significance?

Cheers Russ

[Graham Boak]

I would guess (and it is a guess) that if this was standard, then the squadrons were using the spinner colour as a distinguishing feature.  There is precedent for this: FAA units on carrier did try to distinguish themselves from their fellows in some way other than just the codes/numbers.

[Seahawk]

49 minutes ago, russ c said:

Thanks Seahawk,

 Yeah that`s the photo and the reason I`m interested in wanting to do it. Wondering if it`s a replacement wing or they just didn`t get around to painting it out? In the latter case maybe there were some others with the old roundel on the stbd wing.

Yeah it may have been 887 Sq, I just presumed that 887 had Sky spinners and 894 had Black or Slate Grey ones. Do you know if the spinner colour had any significance?

Cheers Russ

 

Not bothering/getting round to painting out the EIF roundel sounds more likely to me.  I've seen the same on Corsairs.  Use of the 3-digit code suggests a date after June 1945.

 

Others on this site are better qualified than I to comment on whether the spinner colours are of significance.  I have a colour photo of 147/S which has a White or maybe Sky spinner and ought to be 894 Sq and 115/S of 887 has a dark-coloured one so there may be something in it.  Dark Sea Grey or Extra Dark Slate Grey would be unusual colours for Seafire spinners at this stage in the war.  Something in the dim recesses of what passes for my memory is suggesting Roundel Blue as an alternative to Black but best treat that as unsubstantiated speculation!

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Seahawk

[iang]

Russ,

 

The serial for 115/S is unknown. I've been through all the extant Admiralty documents for the BPF, and Indefatigable's Seafires are probably the worst documented air group. In fact, during Iceberg and Operation off Japan, I can only identify 11 of Indefatigable Seafires by serial and code from both squadrons. Other sources - such as flying log books, used in conjunction with Admiralty records, may reveal more in the future, but at present those that are known represent a small proportion of all those embarked ( especially given that the wastage rate was so high at the beginning of Iceberg).  In contrast, Indefatigable's Fireflies are one of the best documented groups. 

 

I think that the photo you refer to is probably from Iceberg (March - May 1945). It's an IWM photo, but don't trust the date they assign as they invariably do not assign the date the photo was taken, often using the date that the photo was passed by the censor instead. 

 

 

 

HTH

 

[russ c]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks very much to your responses. Just found another photo, it doesn`t show the tail but could be the same airplane, when I enlarged it I can make out 211. So probably going to go with NN211.

Here`s links to the photo`s if anyone`s interested :

 https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.squarespace-cdn.com%2Fcontent%2Fv1%2F531fdb48e4b0e8fbe6259952%2F1398076891264-Z5N7G2AX0NGELUOJXBR8%2Fke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kHod7IFYiBh317u2ImQUR-5Zw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIQ5sAuGYM4WzkuNR89axwBgfNBsjEBrPeBwp_IbX8ZrgKMshLAGzx4R3EDFOm1kBS%2Fimage-asset.jpeg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.armouredcarriers.com%2Findefatigable-kamikaze&tbnid=LqqIwhaWXXHsjM&vet=12ahUKEwjM9_2c9qXuAhUHAmMBHTT4DoUQMygBegUIARCZAQ..i&docid=E_Gu-o3Kt5iGWM&w=782&h=612&q=seafire hms indefatigable&ved=2ahUKEwjM9_2c9qXuAhUHAmMBHTT4DoUQMygBegUIARCZAQ

 

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.squarespace-cdn.com%2Fcontent%2Fv1%2F531fdb48e4b0e8fbe6259952%2F1400392617026-8Y4NBCA334ETGEKSOYDA%2Fke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kD9lyIAbJ_DB3LOjUYlTlcVZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIkV0Qcrp_l5OjInALtOt_8hyrk0LaKiUT1GH3BgizEtk%2Fimage-asset.png&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armouredcarriers.com%2Fseafire-development&tbnid=6CGuLhPSVA4A0M&vet=12ahUKEwjM9_2c9qXuAhUHAmMBHTT4DoUQMygCegUIARCbAQ..i&docid=kD0H1ScNyEh5rM&w=913&h=723&q=seafire hms indefatigable&ved=2ahUKEwjM9_2c9qXuAhUHAmMBHTT4DoUQMygCegUIARCbAQ

 

Cheers Russ

 

 

[iang]

Russ,

Those are not the same aircraft (note the position of the starboard roundel relative to the leading edge). I believe that the second photo shows NN212, which was 112/S.

 

HTH

Edited January 18, 2021 by iang

[russ c]

20 minutes ago, iang said:

Russ,

Those are not the same aircraft (note the position of the starboard roundel relative to the leading edge). I believe that the second photo shows NN212, which was 112/S.

 

HTH

Hi Ian,

I just double checked and I can still read 211 when I enlarge it, see what you mean about the stbd roundel though. On all the pic`s I can find S/112 has a sky spinner though, do you think that spinners got swapped around between aircraft or if spinner colours had any significance or meaning? 

Cheers Russ

[iang]

28 minutes ago, russ c said:

Hi Ian,

I just double checked and I can still read 211 when I enlarge it, see what you mean about the stbd roundel though. On all the pic`s I can find S/112 has a sky spinner though, do you think that spinners got swapped around between aircraft or if spinner colours had any significance or meaning? 

Cheers Russ

 

Quite right, my mistake, it is NN211. Sadly, however, I don't know the code unless I've transposed the serial in my notes (i'll need to check). I have high quality prints of both of these photos. I can almost read the serial on 115/S, but not quite.

 

I thought at one stage that the spinner colour was associated with aircraft of the two squadrons, but there are too many counter examples for this to be true. In late 1944, Indefatigable's Seafires seem to have adopted spinner colours to identify sections. There is a photo of deck-range of aircraft coded 1x and 2x where several different spinner colours seems to be in use.

 

 

[Peter Roberts]

Pale coloured spinner backplate may suggest this was previously a light coloured spinner (white? Sky?) and since replaced with a darker spinner (Black? Roundel Blue?) - ?

[russ c]

14 minutes ago, iang said:

 

Quite right, my mistake, it is NN211. Sadly, however, I don't know the code unless I've transposed the serial in my notes (i'll need to check). I have high quality prints of both of these photos. I can almost read the serial on 115/S, but not quite.

 

I thought at one stage that the spinner colour was associated with aircraft of the two squadrons, but there are too many counter examples for this to be true. In late 1944, Indefatigable's Seafires seem to have adopted spinner colours to identify sections. There is a photo of deck-range of aircraft coded 1x and 2x where several different spinner colours seems to be in use.

 

 

Hi Ian,

 re spinners, that`s what I thought at first. I`m thinking that towards the end they just got mixed up and crews fitted what ever was serviceable towards the end of the cruise?

Cheers Russ

[russ c]

8 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

Pale coloured spinner backplate may suggest this was previously a light coloured spinner (white? Sky?) and since replaced with a darker spinner (Black? Roundel Blue?) - ?

Hi Peter,

 You could be right, I also thought maybe it was a fresh unpainted backplate?

Cheers Russ

[Peter Roberts]

Yes, unpainted did cross my mind too, but I don't think Seafires had any unpainted components given the ravages of their environment, hence my thoughts of White or Sky.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Peter Roberts