79 SQ Spitfire MkVc Colors

[Juan R-S]

Hello all,

 

I am assembling the old Aifix 1/72 Spitfire Mk Vc (the one that combined the Spitfire MkVb with a new set of wings).

I want to finish it in the colors of the 79 squadron Spitfire MkVc. My question is what was the underside colors?

Airfix suggest a paint mix of azure blue and white. That would end up as something similar to sky blue.  Some accounts

suggest using medium sea gray or even azure blue.  

 

I, for one, am very happy Airfix came out with a new version of the Spitfire MkVc. It would be great if they came out with 

a new version of the MkVb or MkVIII in 1/72. 

 

TIA,

 

Juan R-S

[Graham Boak]

There is a recent thread here: RAAF Spitfire Mk.Vc white tail - plus new Airfix Mk.Vc - WWII - Britmodeller.com.   I suspect however it may shed less light than desired. 

 

From what I've gleaned then and since, these aircraft were partially repainted Foliage Green over the Middle Stone of the RAF Desert Scheme as delivered.  The Dark Earth was retained.  There seems to be no mention of having repainted the Azure Blue undersides, which would always be more difficult.  The Airfix colour mix is presumably intended to be RAAF Sky Blue, but this is much lighter than the recommended proportions will give.  However if the mix was based on Humbrol 57 for the Azure Blue, this was too dark anyway...  The common representation of UP.T as having a single uppersurface coat of Foliage Green is based on a few examples shot up sun using ortho film: other photos of the same aircraft at much the same time show that it carried the standard camouflage pattern.  (RAF Dark Earth will appear dark on ortho film anyway, as can be seen on several Battle of Britain photos.)

 

I also have one of the older kits on the go, with a somewhat thinned wing and other improvements, but when I posted the above thread it had just received an undercoat of RAAF Dark Green on the uppersurface over RAAF Sky Blue unders.  This is using WEM Colourcoats paints.  I have since been assured that RAAF Foliage Green is a good match for USAAF Medium Green, needing perhaps a dash of blue.  An alternative approach could be (good old?) Humbrol 30 with a similar small amount of blue.  However, it did vary not just in service but also from differing paint producers, so some latitude is allowed.  In the near future I'll compare the WEM Foliage Green with these suggestions, but suspect this may be based on the older suggestion of FG as a very dark green.

[Magpie22]

As Graham says, UP-T had RAF Dark Earth and RAAF Foliage Green upper surfaces with RAF Azure Blue under surfaces. The aircraft arrived in Australia finished in a desert scheme applied in the UK before the A/C was shipped. On arrival the RAAF had the Middle Stone overpainted with Foliage Green to better suit it to local theatre requirements. The aircraft for No. 79 Squadron did not differ from those that went to No. 1 Wing in Darwin.

Peter M

[Graham Boak]

Thanks to Peter for his help, and to those in the earlier thread.  I have now tried WEM Foliage Green, and it is a lighter variant, lighter then H30 I'd say and a bit garish to my European eyes.  Certainly non-olive.  However, I'll see what it looks like when the other colour is on.  The WEM RAAF Dark Earth is dark, much more so than their RAAF Earth Brown, which is not my understanding.  So under the circumstances I'll switch them around and blame weathering if required to do so.

[Michael louey]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Thanks to Peter for his help, and to those in the earlier thread.  I have now tried WEM Foliage Green, and it is a lighter variant, lighter then H30 I'd say and a bit garish to my European eyes.  Certainly non-olive.  However, I'll see what it looks like when the other colour is on.  The WEM RAAF Dark Earth is dark, much more so than their RAAF Earth Brown, which is not my understanding.  So under the circumstances I'll switch them around and blame weathering if required to do so.

Hi Graham

 

A few notes about enamel hobby paints to match RAAF colours. After your note about the WEM paints, I had a quick search and found this article by one of our old members of IPMS -

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2008/january/new-releases/wem_raafpaint.php

 

I've used a few of the WEM/Sovereign  colours for RAAF builds and my comments based on Ian Baker and Red Roo paint chip samples is similar to Phil's comments in the article.

 

RAAF Foliage Green - I do have a can of the original WEM and found it a bit too "bright" compared to chips. I tend to use colours matching FS34092 (Humbrol or Gunze) for this colour though it might not be quite "green" enough. Recently I bumped into an article by Red Roo which noted that another of our old members Fred Harris had a sample of real Foliage Green from an aircraft artefact and it matched the old Humbrol HB1 Dark Green. Now it should be noted I eventually came to the view that HB1 is too green and not olive enough for RAF Dark Green but it might very well match Foliage Green very well. I found a couple of old cans of HB1 (one was basically unuseable but still ok to use as a colour match) on the weekend and they seem like good candidates for Foliage Green. Note: whichever colour Humbrol recommends as RAF Dark Green these days probably won't match HB1 so its back to the drawing board as I doubt there are many tins of real HB1 out there.

 

RAAF Earth Brown - The 2 Humbrol colours which are reasonable candidates are Hu 10 Service Brown and Hu 98 Chocolate. The former is a closer match but I always find using the gloss paint a nightmare so I usually use Hu 98. Phil notes in the article that the WEM colour is way off - I've never owned this paint so can't comment.

 

RAAF Sky Blue - I use the Sovereign colour and while not a complete match (as per Phil's article), I find it ok for use.

 

RAAF Dark Earth - It is a bit darker than RAF Dark Earth and I used it recently for some overpaints of roudels - I agee with Phil - it looks like a good match.

 

Hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

Michael

Edited January 18, 2021 by Michael louey

[72nd SQN]

Hi Peter @Magpie22

do you mind me asking what your thoughts are on ES307 UP-X (Double Bar), we spoke a while ago about UP-R and your insight was very informative.

Hope all is well !

Cheers Paul.G

[Magpie22]

26 minutes ago, 72nd SQN said:

Hi Peter @Magpie22

do you mind me asking what your thoughts are on ES307 UP-X (Double Bar), we spoke a while ago about UP-R and your insight was very informative.

Hope all is well !

Cheers Paul.G

Paul,

Sorry, can't recall discussing UP-R, (which one?), (on this site?).

I presume that you are refering to ES307's second incarnation with the squadron from November 1943 to October 1944. She became A58-169 at the end of Nov 43. I have shots of her on Kiriwina and at Los Negros. Basic colour scheme was the same but there were other changes.

Cheers,
Peter

[Magpie22]

58 minutes ago, 72nd SQN said:

Hi Peter @Magpie22

do you mind me asking what your thoughts are on ES307 UP-X (Double Bar), we spoke a while ago about UP-R and your insight was very informative.

Hope all is well !

Cheers Paul.G

Paul,

Sorry, I don't recall discussing UP-R. (Which UP-R?) (This forum?)

Can you be a bit more explicit re ES307, UP-Xbarbar? 

She first joined joined the squadron in May 1943, but Sgt Chomley suffered U/C failure on 27 June and was forced to make a wheels up landing. I have no photos of her at this time. LZ894 then became the new 'X'.

ES307 returned to the squadron in October 1943. As LZ894 was still on squadon strength, ES307 became UP-Xbarbar. She was renumbered A58-169 at the end of November. I have a few photos of her at Kiriwina and, later, on Los Negros. Basic camouflage remained the same, but there were other variations.

Cheers,

Peter

 

[72nd SQN]

Hey Peter @Magpie22, old school via email it was  - seeing that I couldn't just see you once a month at SPASM after you moved !  this one:

 

 

 

cheers Paul.G

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by 72nd SQN

[Graham Boak]

14 hours ago, Michael louey said:

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2008/january/new-releases/wem_raafpaint.php

 

I've used a few of the WEM/Sovereign  colours for RAAF builds and my comments based on Ian Baker and Red Roo paint chip samples is similar to Phil's comments in the article.

 

RAAF Foliage Green - I do have a can of the original WEM and found it a bit too "bright" compared to chips. I tend to use colours matching FS34092 (Humbrol or Gunze) for this colour though it might not be quite "green" enough. Recently I bumped into an article by Red Roo which noted that another of our old members Fred Harris had a sample of real Foliage Green from an aircraft artefact and it matched the old Humbrol HB1 Dark Green. Now it should be noted I eventually came to the view that HB1 is too green and not olive enough for RAF Dark Green but it might very well match Foliage Green very well. I found a couple of old cans of HB1 (one was basically unusable but still ok to use as a colour match) on the weekend and they seem like good candidates for Foliage Green. Note: whichever colour Humbrol recommends as RAF Dark Green these days probably won't match HB1 so its back to the drawing board as I doubt there are many tins of real HB1 out there.

 

RAAF Earth Brown - The 2 Humbrol colours which are reasonable candidates are Hu 10 Service Brown and Hu 98 Chocolate. The former is a closer match but I always find using the gloss paint a nightmare so I usually use Hu 98. Phil notes in the article that the WEM colour is way off - I've never owned this paint so can't comment.

 

RAAF Sky Blue - I use the Sovereign colour and while not a complete match (as per Phil's article), I find it ok for use.

 

RAAF Dark Earth - It is a bit darker than RAF Dark Earth and I used it recently for some overpaints of roundels - I agree with Phil - it looks like a good match.

Very helpful: Peter Malone also suggested 24096/24092 with a little Azure Blue, which would fit well with your comment about less olive.  Must haul out the FS565 chips and tine of USAAC Medium Green.  (Perhaps add a little blue - this could become a chorus before I'm finished.)

 

re HB1:  which one are we talking about?  The original HB1 that came in a boxed set was a very good match for RAF Dark Green, I recall being struck by the olive nature of it compared to the then-standard H30.  However when Humbrol started selling the Authentic colours in separate tins the colour quality fell off considerably, and this would match with your comment that it was too green, not olive enough for RAF Dark Green but a good candidate for Foliage Green.  I wouldn't look to even an old tin labelled HB1.  Humbrol do a good match for the RAF colour but in satin for modern aircraft (116 I think but I don't use it very often), Airfix still tends to recommend H30, at least sometimes(?).

 

re RAAF Dark Earth/Earth Brown.  I did find a tin of RAF Dark Earth but the lid looked very dark, so I thought: so what: and used the RAAF Earth Brown.  What I ended up with was strongly reminiscent of the original Airfix Boomerang art - light green and light earth.  Once upon a time I'd have been quite pleased with that.  Now it will do nicely as an undercoat once sanded down.  Once I looked, that somewhat dark tin lid of Dark Earth didn't actually match the lighter paint inside...

 

RAAF Sky Blue: still looks too pale/grey on the Spitfire.  I agree a dab of blue, must dig out my RAF Sky Blue as a comparison.

 

RAF/RAAF Extra Dark Sea Grey: I agree with Phil in his article because even tins of RAF EDSG require a dash of blue.  From wartime colour photos, and personal experience in the 60s and 70s, this colour gets lighter and bluer almost as soon as it is wheeled out of the spray shop.  Forgive slight exaggeration, but something headed towards an RAF ensign blue grey is a better match for a service type.

[Michael louey]

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

re HB1:  which one are we talking about?  The original HB1 that came in a boxed set was a very good match for RAF Dark Green, I recall being struck by the olive nature of it compared to the then-standard H30.  However when Humbrol started selling the Authentic colours in separate tins the colour quality fell off considerably, and this would match with your comment that it was too green, not olive enough for RAF Dark Green but a good candidate for Foliage Green.  I wouldn't look to even an old tin labelled HB1.  Humbrol do a good match for the RAF colour but in satin for modern aircraft (116 I think but I don't use it very often), Airfix still tends to recommend H30, at least sometimes(?).

 

 

 

Hi Graham

 

I had 2 remaining cans of HB1 in my stash - presumably I'd decided they weren't good matches for RAF dark green and "archived" them. Both would have been bought individually at hobby stores from their rack - I can't ever recall buying boxed sets of authentics. One has a paper label on top of a white lid, the other has the dark green colour printed on the lid (this would be a later issue). The latter can is still useable and I'm about to try it out on a Boomerang. It will be an interesting experiment but the colour seems to match the colour chips I have but since there is no more HB1, I'll have to revert back to FS34092 when this can runs out.

 

Cheers

 

Michael