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43 Sq Spitfire Vc: code colour in Sicily?


Seahawk

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I have a hankering to build my first Airfix 1/72 Spitfire Vc as a mainstream RAF aircraft rather than the 2 interesting choices offered on the transfer sheet.  My eye has lit upon ES352 FT-Y of 43 Squadron as photographed at Comiso, Sicily, in January 1943 (see photo on p.74 of Spitfire Mark V Aces 1941-45).  I would be interested in people's thoughts as to the colour of the codes.  My current thinking is that they are light grey.  Is that Sea Grey Medium or another shade?   At present I am thinking of using some blue-grey codes from a positively antediluvian Almark sheet A4 (which are pale but with a pronounced blue tinge) but if anyone has any more accurate suggestions I would be interested to know.  (I think Microscale/Superscale may also have done some grey RAF codes in the mists of antiquity?)

 

Also, if ES352 was probably fitted with narrow cannon bulges, could someone please say before I am irrevocably committed?

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Hi Seahawk,

 

My researches, based on A/C received by the RAAF, would suggest that an ES serialed A/C from CB would have had the wide cannon-feed bulges. The change over to narrow bulges on production A/C came about in the first quater of 1943. Production of ES serialled A/C at CB was completed in December 1942. Of course, it is possible that narrow cannon-feed bulges were installed after the A/C entered service.

 

Peter M

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I'll stick my head above the parapet- My first thought was for white codes on that 43(F) Sqn machine, but colour interpretation from black and white photographs is a minefield.  I look forward to the discussion. 

 

EDIT:  To add, I've just had a look at my copy of Michael J F Bowyer's "Fighting Colours- RAF Fighter Camouflage and Markings 1937-1975"  (2nd Edition) and he states in Chapter 11, "1943-44 Middle East and Italy" Page 105 "Codes letters were laid down in white at this period, but an increasing number of squadrons used red" . He goes on to mention that 43 Squadron are among the Squadrons that transitioned to Red codes, and eventually to red codes outlined in white, but that's another story. 

 

 

 

 

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@Magpie22: thank you.  That's that nailed then.

 

Here's the photo I'm discussing:

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/RAF-43Sqn-FT/images/Spitfire-MkVcTrop-RAF-43Sqn-FTY-ES352-at-Comiso-Sicily-IWM-CNA1056.jpg

 

Notwithstanding the undoubted perils of interpreting colours from BW photographs, I have trouble seeing the tone of the codes as the same of the white or even less the red of the roundel.  I don't dispute the accuracy of anything MJF Bowyer says.  There is a well-known sequence of colour photos showing 417 Sq (AN) aircraft with definite white codes (see Freeman; The RAF of WW2 In Colour, p.110, 112), and another showing 241 Sq (RZ) Spitfire IXs with red codes (op cit, p.125).  The progression of 43 Sq aircraft to red codes outlined white is also well attested but to my knowledge more a feature of their Spitfire VIIIs and IXs in the S of France and later in Austria.   But I'm not sure Bowyer has the complete story.  In a partial answer to my own question, the same Freeman book shows (p. 113)  in colour a  601 Sq Spitfire V UF-K, believed to be ER207, landing at Gabes, Tunisia in early April 1943.  To my mind it too shows bluey-grey codes.  The same colour is apparent in photos of 112 Sq Kittyhawks FR472 GA-L and FR440 GA-V at Medenine, Tunisia, in April 1943 (op cit, p.108-9).  Now I know we have to aim off for the notoriously erratic colour balance of the photos in Freeman's book but I'm not sure it's enough to explain away the phenomenon.

 

In the interests of presenting evidence objectively I should also quote from p. 335 of J Beedle's 43 Squadron: "In North Africa [NB no mention of Italy!] codes were always white except that sometimes red undercoat was the sole colour available." 

 

(Off -topic, he also provides a date for 43 Sq adopting 2-tone codes.  When F/L Laing-Mason arrived in Nov 1943, he introduced into A Flight the red codes outlined in white used on his previous squadron, 145.  After he became squadron commander (Mar 44), B Flight adopted blue codes with white outlines.)

 

 

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The codes `could' be Medium Sea Grey for the sqn letters and white for the individual code `Y'........ but I would say they are on the lighter side of MSG,..... ie very pale. Red is also an option, comparing the codes with the red on the roundel. 

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As I said, It's a a minefield! 🙂  

 

I went direct to the IWM website for the Comiso photo to have a look, and I can certainly see what you mean about the difference in tone between the Identification codes and the white of the national insignia, but this may only be down to age of the marking, or type/stock  of paint used-  I can also see Tonyot's point as there could be different colours in play between the FT and the Y, but it's hard to be certain either way.

 

ES352, Comiso, Sicily 1943

 

I dug out my copy of Andy Saunders' Osprey Aviation Elite Units No9  "No 43 'Fighting Cocks' Squadron" and the Colour profiles by Chris Davey include one of ES352 as it appeared in Sicily, and he has the codes as a very pale grey, perhaps lighter than Medium Sea Grey. On the other hand, his under surface colour is a very pale sky blue, so I'm not convinced of the accuracy of the scheme as depicted, your mileage may vary.

 

Unfortunately I don't have the Freeman book you mention, but I shall seek it out.

 

I suppose my position is if the only documentary evidence  (Bowyer, Beedle) states white as the specified colour for the codes, who can say for certain that they are anything else? Conversely, a choice of Medium Sea Grey would be feasible, as it seemingly fits with the photographic evidence, stores supply schedule and practices in other theatres.

 

Thanks for mentioning Jimmy Beedle, for as Former Fighting Cock ground crew (Phantom and Tornado) I have two editions of his Squadron History on the shelf and it made me blush not to have  remembered I had them to hand.  🙂 

 

Gloria Finis!

 

Troffa

 

 

 

 

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Is there any precedence for using Azure Blue for codes?

I'm not convinced with @tonyot argument that the squadron codes are MSG and the aircraft letter is white. The aircraft letter does appear lighter on initial viewing, but I think it's actually an optical illusion with it being on a dark background, the actual grey shade of the letter is in fact the same as the squadron codes. It's darker than the white on the roundel, and lighter than the red (so neither of these) and it's lighter than the middle stone, the tonal difference being similar to that on the vokes filter  between the middle stone and the underside colour (presumably Azure Blue)

The codes on the 112 sqn Kittyhawks and 601 sqn Spitfire referred to above by @Seahawk have a very blue tone and again appear very close to the underside colour (again, presumably Azure Blue)

I'd guess there wouldn't be any availability issues, as the paint would be available for underside painting, whereas MSG would be another colour to keep on stock.

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Not perhaps precedent but it was seen later in India/Burma: either Azure Blue or possibly a slightly lighter blue.  I would suggest that a better match might be Sky Blue, as it would seem to be slightly lighter than the undersides - but then blue almost always appears light on wartime emulsions, even the panchromatic ones like this one, barring the use of an appropriate filter.

 

Bowyer's book is now quite elderly, and despite its continued value (and lack of a good single volume replacement) I'd not be surprised to find that there was rather more variation in code colouring than he might imply.  Not least because this one takes some convincing to appear white, but also because further research into a wider variety of photographs has shown that every other RAF theatre has produced more variations than imagined some decades back.

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Here's a nice shot of OC 43, Sqn Ldr Michael Rook, reputedly the tallest Pilot in the RAF at this time, in front of JK101.

This was his newly delivered Spitfire Mk VC and appears to have what could be a red undercoat Code Letter, as mentioned by Jimmy Beedle in his Squadron history.

Photo taken at Jemappes, Algeria two or three months prior to Operation Husky. 

 

Sqn Ldr Rook 

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43 minutes ago, Dave Swindell said:

Is there any precedence for using Azure Blue for codes?

I'm not convinced with @tonyot argument that the squadron codes are MSG and the aircraft letter is white. The aircraft letter does appear lighter on initial viewing, but I think it's actually an optical illusion with it being on a dark background, the actual grey shade of the letter is in fact the same as the squadron codes. It's darker than the white on the roundel, and lighter than the red (so neither of these) and it's lighter than the middle stone, the tonal difference being similar to that on the vokes filter  between the middle stone and the underside colour (presumably Azure Blue)

The codes on the 112 sqn Kittyhawks and 601 sqn Spitfire referred to above by @Seahawk have a very blue tone and again appear very close to the underside colour (again, presumably Azure Blue)

I'd guess there wouldn't be any availability issues, as the paint would be available for underside painting, whereas MSG would be another colour to keep on stock.

Light Blue was used by Malta based units and I did consider mentioning that,..... but it just doesn`t look like it to me,..... and I remember typing `could' when I mde this remark,..... "The codes `could' be Medium Sea Grey for the sqn letters and white for the individual code `Y' ,...... but hey! 

Edited by tonyot
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Veering off topic, but according to Andy Saunders' book Troffa mentioned this squadron painted code letters and spinners of their Spitfires VIII and IX with bright red (similar to post office red) instead of usual dull red. Layers of both mentioned paints (and several others) had been found on spinner of Spitfire IX MJ116, dug out of Ljubljana's moor in September 2019. This aircraft briefly flew with 43 Sqn in February 1944. Cheers

Jure

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Thanks to wonder of online book shops, and the dedicated postal and delivery drivers, (not to mention Mr Seahawk for the tip) I am now the proud owner of a lightly used copy of "The Royal Air Force of World War two In Colour" (or TRAFOWWTIC as it shall hereby be known!) and at less than £4 delivered I am absolutely delighted!

 

I cannot readily explain why this marvellous tome has been absent from my already substantial Military Aircraft Modelling Reference library until now- although its 1995 publication date(Paperback) does coincide with a period of deep sadness, conflict  and regret in my life, related to a wicked harridan of a woman from Scunthorpe. (Insert your own jokes here)  This harpy, who frowned upon my modelling bent and any other activity not entirely focused upon herself, likely ensured that I spent none of my hard earned on this wonderful book. 😞 

 

Well, enough of the history lesson, and and onwards with the history lesson! 🙂 

 

Mr Seahawk wrote:

 

"the same Freeman book shows (p. 113)  in colour a  601 Sq Spitfire V UF-K, believed to be ER207, landing at Gabes, Tunisia in early April 1943.  To my mind it too shows bluey-grey codes.  The same colour is apparent in photos of 112 Sq Kittyhawks FR472 GA-L and FR440 GA-V at Medenine, Tunisia, in April 1943 (op cit, p.108-9).  Now I know we have to aim off for the notoriously erratic colour balance of the photos in Freeman's book"

 

And I concur wholeheartedly with all of the above- The Kittyhawks in particular sport a lovely Sky Blue (to my mind, and as Mr Boak stated above) so it does appear that plain old White codes did indeed have some competition in the  Desert/ MTO. 

 

I can only pass on my thanks to you all for your reasoned contributions to the thread, and to my lovely wife of 20+ years who is originally from Charlton and doesn't mind too much if I get some Tamiya out on the Kitchen Table 🙂 

 

Best wishes to all,

 

Troffa

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1 hour ago, Troffa said:

Thanks to wonder of online book shops, and the dedicated postal and delivery drivers, (not to mention Mr Seahawk for the tip) I am now the proud owner of a lightly used copy of "The Royal Air Force of World War two In Colour" (or TRAFOWWTIC as it shall hereby be known!) and at less than £4 delivered I am absolutely delighted!

 

Pah!  Mine cost £19.99  in 1993!  And I had to go to Smiths to fetch it.!  If ever I offer anyone investment advice, do yourself a big favour and don't listen.    @TroffaThanks for the kind words.  Nowadays these and many more colour photos are on @Etiennedup's website but there are still times when a book is handier.  Hope you enjoy the book but remember my warning : the book was quite notorious for poor colour balance when it came out and gave rise to a number of harebrained ideas on colours in those less enlightened times.

 

BTW ES352 has now fallen out of favour a bit with me.  Apparently it had the name "Ann" on the fuselage below the windscreen (see Saunders: 43 Fighting Cocks Squadron, Aviation Elites 9, p.50).  This is beyond my failing eyes and trembling fingers to paint.  Or maybe I will have to depict the aircraft during the sadly unrecorded period before the name was painted up.

 

 

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